Questions about Natural Attacks- Attack Actions and Rapid Shot

UltimaGabe

First Post
Hey, everyone. I've got a couple questions about Natural Attacks.

Let's say you're using an Awakened Animal that normally gets 2 claw attacks. Let's say you give it a few levels of Fighter, and it takes Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm.

Could it, on a Full Attack action, attack with one claw and try to Disarm with the other? Could it Disarm with one and Trip with the other? Do they each count as iterative attacks for purposes of feats and abilities that take up an attack action?

Now for my second question: This one requires a bit of imagination. Let's say a creature somehow has a Ranged Natural Attack. (For example, there's a spell in Savage Species that allows a creature to use one of its natural attacks as a ranged attack up to 30 feat away. Let's say you're playing Troll with that spell permanently on. He'd then have 2 claws, each with a range of 30 feet.) Could you, theoretically, combine these natural attacks with Rapid Shot? I suppose a better comparison would be to ask if a creature with a Claw attack could take Two-Weapon Fighting and get two attacks. Would anything like this be possible?

Basically, here's the deal: I'm playing an Eberron Artificer in a campaign, and I'm working with the DM to make a new type of Nimblewright. (As you know, Nimblewrights have natural weapons- 2 Rapier-Hands. These follow all of the rules of Natural Weapons, as far as I know.) My character uses a Pistol- taken from a recent issue of Dragon- and we got the idea to make a Nimblewright that uses two pistols (or possibly revolvers) instead of two rapiers. Basically, we're re-working the Nimblewright a bit, changing its feats, and so on. So I was wondering what feats to give him. Spring Attack is out, as is Combat Reflexes (as he won't be making any melee attacks, or attacks of opportunity, in the near future). I thought of the Ranged Disarm feat from Complete Warrior, but I wanted to know if he could possibly get some sort of a benefit from Rapid Shot. If not, that's fine, but I just wanted to know if there was anything in the rules saying that it was possible.

Any help or advice would be most appreciated.
 

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UltimaGabe said:
Could you, theoretically, combine these natural attacks with Rapid Shot?

I can't see why not... the rule for natural weapons is that they never gain extra attacks due to high BAB.

Rapid Shot grants an extra attack, but it isn't due to high BAB.

Two Weapon Fighting doesn't apply to natural weapons, though, since TWF penalties don't apply to natural weapons. The feat to lower secondary natural weapon penalties is Multiattack.

-Hyp.
 

Alright. Thanks a lot.

The next question, of course, being:

Let's say the above-mentioned Troll has a +11 attack bonus with his throwing claws. In battle, he takes a Full Attack action, and decides to make use of his Rapid Shot feat.

How many attacks does he get?

4? That is, his two primary throwing claws at +9, and his secondary claws at +9 as well? Or 3, his two throwing claws at +9, and ONE secondary claw at +9?

Edit: Here's a better example. Let's say you're using a Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. He uses Throwing Daggers as his specialty, and as a result, he has Quick Draw, and a bandolier full of throwing daggers. When taking a full attack, he gets two throwing daggers per round at a +9 bonus (normally, they're at +11, but two-weapon fighting reduces these by two)- one from his main hand, and one from his off-hand. Then, he picks up Rapid Shot. Does he only get one extra attack (this time, three attacks at +7), which comes from whichever hand he wants it to? Or, since he's using two separate weapons, does he get two extra attacks (once again, all at +7), one from each hand? Or is Rapid Shot usable at all with Two-Weapon Fighting?
 
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Rapid shot is only one extra attack per round when using the full attack action. Your example fighter could throw a single extra dagger with either hand (total 3, though he would be silly to no tuse his primary hand for the better damage bonus). Your nimblewright would fire twice with one pistol (assuming reloading was a free action) and once with the other pistol. The troll would have 3 ranged claw attacks. You may select the extra attack as coming from either claw/pistol.


edited for clarity... again because I misread the effects of the spell, Hyp is right, 2 ranged claw attacks, not three, unless the spell was cast twice (once on each claw... then 3 ranged claw attacks, ie. still only +1 attack for rapid shot)
 
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UltimaGabe said:
4? That is, his two primary throwing claws at +9, and his secondary claws at +9 as well? Or 3, his two throwing claws at +9, and ONE secondary claw at +9?

Wait, what?

A normal troll has two primary natural attacks (two claws) and one secondary natural attack (a bite).

With the spell, one of his claws changes from being a melee attack to being a ranged attack, right?

So he's now Right Claw (+11 ranged), Left Claw (+11 melee), Bite (+6 melee).

With Rapid Shot, he can make an extra ranged attack, with a -2 penalty on all attacks. So he could now do Right Claw (+9 ranged), Right Claw (+9 ranged), Left Claw (+9 melee), Bite (+4 melee).

-Hyp.
 

UltimaGabe said:
Could it, on a Full Attack action, attack with one claw and try to Disarm with the other? Could it Disarm with one and Trip with the other? Do they each count as iterative attacks for purposes of feats and abilities that take up an attack action?
I just want to raise this question again, as it wasn't answered and I'm interested int he answer.
 


Hypersmurf said:
Wait, what?

A normal troll has two primary natural attacks (two claws) and one secondary natural attack (a bite).

With the spell, one of his claws changes from being a melee attack to being a ranged attack, right?

So he's now Right Claw (+11 ranged), Left Claw (+11 melee), Bite (+6 melee).

With Rapid Shot, he can make an extra ranged attack, with a -2 penalty on all attacks. So he could now do Right Claw (+9 ranged), Right Claw (+9 ranged), Left Claw (+9 melee), Bite (+4 melee).

-Hyp.

Sorry, I didn't clarify. By "Secondary claw", I meant the extra attack granted from the Rapid Shot feat. I should have stated my question as this:

"4? That is, his two normal throwing claws at +9, and his bonus throwing claws at +9 as well? Or 3, his two normal throwing claws at +9, and ONE bonus throwing claw at +9?"

Eh, I don't know if that's easier to understand, but I tried.
 

UltimaGabe said:
Sorry, I didn't clarify. By "Secondary claw", I meant the extra attack granted from the Rapid Shot feat. I should have stated my question as this:

"4? That is, his two normal throwing claws at +9, and his bonus throwing claws at +9 as well? Or 3, his two normal throwing claws at +9, and ONE bonus throwing claw at +9?"

Eh, I don't know if that's easier to understand, but I tried.

Well, Rapid Shot only grants one extra attack, not one extra attack with each weapon...

-Hyp.
 


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