Questions about the Midnight setting

[Tymophil]

Hi all,

I have come across this setting (I gave it as a christmas gift to my nephew), and then dug the Midnight universe through web sites. Very soon, I came to the conclusion that the setting simply could not exist as described. Still, I could not find one single review echoing my concerns... They all say the setting is close to perfect.

So I asked several questions on the French fansite "Midnight Sundering". I got no real answer to my questions, rather the same old information repeated, with no solution to the problems I raised. I guess, I shall upset them if I keep repeating my questions. So I decided to ask my questions here instead.

In a nutshell, I simply don't understand how could the human settlements survive more than two years. Human cities should disappear even faster...

As far as I can tell, the Midnight world cannot produce any tool, any cloth (especially made of leather). Stocking food is just as impossible, and thus humans cannot survive one winter.

Barter is also impossible, as it is impossible to make anything allowing transport of food (the most obvious thing to barter with) : no barrel, no bag, no cart.

How does this setting answer my concerns ?

Thanks for your attention and your answers.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

In a nutshell, I simply don't understand how could the human settlements survive more than two years.

As a general advice, I recommend not to look too closely at all the details in a fantasy world - there can be some.. inconsistencies sometimes, but that shouldn't keep you from having fun with the setting.

As far as I can tell, the Midnight world cannot produce any tool, any cloth (especially made of leather).

They can. Often, they have to: As far as I can remember, human craftsmen need the permission to create things - and often they are forced to work by the Shadow's minions. So they might have tools (not of the best quality, of course), but they have to use them to make things for the shadow. Their clothes will probably be scraps - the surplus they may keep after all the better stuff has been taken.

Plus, there's always hiding things from the Shadow...

Stocking food is just as impossible, and thus humans cannot survive one winter.

It is probably true that few will sleep warm and with a full stomach in winter, but it's not as if the Shadow's minions would take everything away. They don't want to kill the humans, they're only occupying them (if they wanted to kill them, they'd just unleash the orcs. They love killing things, especially if they're weak and unarmed).


Generally, the humans of Eredane are not living in luxury, they can't get proper education, and not even all of their elementary demands are always met, but they get to keep some food and goods to use and barter with.

 

[Black_Swan]

People find a way to survive...just look at our own world.


Seriously..if people in africa can survive disease, warlords, food shortages, then I'm pretty sure it's possible in Midnight. It's not going to be a fun existence but there's always a way.

 

[barghus]

Human survival in the Midnight setting

The Shadow needs humans to help feed, clothe and arm his armies. Some humans are enslaved, others pass the fruits of their labors along to the Shadow as a tithe.

The Shadow can't occupy everyplace, so he uses human traitors (Traitor Princes and False Sussars) as his instruments of occupation in areas where his orc armies are not in abundance. Some human traitors also volunteer int he Shadow's armies or serve as his priests.

Once the Dwarves and the Elves are dealt with, the Shadow may have no need for the human population, but for now they are an essential component to his war machine.

Have you gone to www.againsttheshadow.org ? It is the largest home of Midnight players online. The folks there can answer any questions you have in exacting detail.

 

[S'mon]

Hi all,

I have come across this setting (I gave it as a christmas gift to my nephew), and then dug the Midnight universe through web sites. Very soon, I came to the conclusion that the setting simply could not exist as described. .

This is very true. When we played the GM went to huge efforts to remove the obvious impossibilities within the setting's internal logic and craft something that allowed for suspension iof disbelief. She was pretty successful, but it took a lot of work. You have to really like the atmosphere to invest that much in making it plausible.

 

[Tymophil]

As a general advice, I recommend not to look too closely at all the details in a fantasy world - there can be some.. inconsistencies sometimes, but that shouldn't keep you from having fun with the setting.

This is a sound advice, for sure. But suspension of disbelief is important.

They can. Often, they have to: As far as I can remember, human craftsmen need the permission to create things - and often they are forced to work by the Shadow's minions. So they might have tools (not of the best quality, of course), but they have to use them to make things for the shadow. Their clothes will probably be scraps - the surplus they may keep after all the better stuff has been taken.

My concern is that it requires much more than mere craftsmen to have something made. In fact, it requires a whole chain : people extracting (metal, wood) or producing raw material (leather, linen, wool, etc.), people transporting those raw materials, people working for the support of the transportation (raising horses, making carts, maintaining roads and bridges), people transforming raw material into another form of not-so-raw material , people making clothes for members of this chain and people working to feed the members of this chain.

If I got the Midnight setting right, no link in this chain is allowed to exist... The only chance would have to have the whole human society support the war effort, but this would mean maintaining most of the society together, like France under the Nazi rule. Nothing like what Midnight tries to portray.

Plus, there's always hiding things from the Shadow...

You can hide things, people, activities not a whole society...

It is probably true that few will sleep warm and with a full stomach in winter, but it's not as if the Shadow's minions would take everything away. They don't want to kill the humans, they're only occupying them (if they wanted to kill them, they'd just unleash the orcs. They love killing things, especially if they're weak and unarmed).

Okay, I can portray an occupied nation. But, destroying all the means to produce food by forbidding some important things would make the system collapse real fast. As I said, such a society would disappear in two years at the most.

Generally, the humans of Eredane are not living in luxury, they can't get proper education, and not even all of their elementary demands are always met, but they get to keep some food and goods to use and barter with.

Just tell me how they are fed. Where does the food come from ? Who transports it to the population of the cities ? Where is it stocked ?

People find a way to survive...just look at our own world.

If you talk about the XXIst century world you may be right. But in a medieval-like world it is not so. The mere rumour of war was enough to send tribes, nations on the road. Just look at what did the Mongol invasion ! Even a severe draught was enough to have people move on. Some nations disappeared, cities were deserted, there population disappearing (most likely dead for 90%, and another 10% absorbed by the neighbours).

This is what should have happened in the Midnight setting.

Seriously... if people in Africa can survive disease, warlords, food shortages, then I'm pretty sure it's possible in Midnight. It's not going to be a fun existence but there's always a way.

Africa is a continent, and a rich one (potentially at least). There is enough riches for the warlord to buy weapons. Some countries are really poor, but most of the time the people are not forbidden to do whatever they can to survive. There are also countries, companies outside Africa that are willing to send in some money or food in... But imagine the situation in Ruanda in 94, unrestrained by other nations... This is what Midnight is all about. In the end, there should be no loser at all...

The Shadow needs humans to help feed, clothe and arm his armies. Some humans are enslaved, others pass the fruits of their labors along to the Shadow as a tithe.
The Shadow needs humans to help feed, clothe and arm his armies. Some humans are enslaved, others pass the fruits of their labors along to the Shadow as a tithe.
The Shadow can't occupy everyplace, so he uses human traitors (Traitor Princes and False Sussars) as his instruments of occupation in areas where his orc armies are not in abundance. Some human traitors also volunteer int he Shadow's armies or serve as his priests.
Once the Dwarves and the Elves are dealt with, the Shadow may have no need for the human population, but for now they are an essential component to his war machine.

Okay, this makes sense... But it would mean that the Shadow would require Humans to work even harder for them, not restraining them from producing food, items as I have been told.

Once again, the image of France and the Nazi rule springs to mind. France was not forbidden to produce food, nor weapons. On the contrary, the Germans made every possible effort to have France produce as much for them. France produced food as in peacetime, produced weapons for the Germans (tanks, trucks, planes, etc.) for the German. The people in the cities did not eat much, and food was the most important thing for people in those days. But the production was always high, the Germans took a big part of it, but people in the rural areas could live relatively well. To avoid any collapse of the production, there was a ticket system, and there was enough produced for a healthy black-market.

But then again, this situation is very different from what we may have seen in medieval times...

Have you gone to www.againsttheshadow.org ? It is the largest home of Midnight players online. The folks there can answer any questions you have in exacting detail.

I confess that I did not, as I feared that fans would simply turn me down as a troublemaker. Moreover, I already asked the “Midnight Sundering” community, and many posters there, post at “Against the Shadow” too. So I did not expected more from AtS.

This is very true. When we played the GM went to huge efforts to remove the obvious impossibilities within the setting's internal logic and craft something that allowed for suspension of disbelief. She was pretty successful, but it took a lot of work. You have to really like the atmosphere to invest that much in making it plausible.

So I am not merely imagining things... That's good to know.

Thanks all for your input.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

My concern is that it requires much more than mere craftsmen to have something made. In fact, it requires a whole chain : people extracting (metal, wood) or producing raw material (leather, linen, wool, etc.), people transporting those raw materials, people working for the support of the transportation (raising horses, making carts, maintaining roads and bridges), people transforming raw material into another form of not-so-raw material , people making clothes for members of this chain and people working to feed the members of this chain.

It doesn't really have to be that way: Metal can be recycled, wood is easy to come by, and I'm sure that you can create clothes from the sheep to the finished product without going global. It could be done by a single person.

Okay, I can portray an occupied nation. But, destroying all the means to produce food by forbidding some important things would make the system collapse real fast. As I said, such a society would disappear in two years at the most.

Are all their means to produce food forbidden? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

The things that are illegal to those not serving the shadow are mainly weapons, knowledge, magic, and travel (though you can get a permit for that).

Just tell me how they are fed. Where does the food come from ? Who transports it to the population of the cities ? Where is it stocked ?

They're not forbidden to raise livestock or cultivate fields.

It is transported by those ordered to bring food to the cities. Slaves probably.

In the villages, they will store it at home, and in the cities, there are bound to be foodstores.

Remember that not all humans live in slavery. In fact, almost all legates are humans, there are the traitor princes and all the collaborators. They want food, too. And they get it. They won't go to bed hungry, that's for sure.

Once again, the image of France and the Nazi rule springs to mind. France was not forbidden to produce food, nor weapons.

The humans of eredane aren't forbidden to produce weapons. In fact, many blacksmithes are forced to produce weapons.

They're only forbidden to own weapons. The weapons the human blacksmiths create go to the shadow.

It's similar with food. You won't see legates on the fields or herding sheep. The occupied humans do produce wares and food. It's just that they're very heavily taxed and may not keep much. If you hold anything back and are found out, the punishment will be very harsh - I think they had a short story sidebar about that very topic.

 

[Tymophil]

It doesn't really have to be that way: Metal can be recycled, wood is easy to come by, and I'm sure that you can create clothes from the sheep to the finished product without going global. It could be done by a single person.

Do you know what it takes to recycle metal ?

Have you ever tried to turn a sheep into some piece of coth ? It's an awful lot of work, and requires tools... Even turning wool into threads is difficult and requires tools. Making leather from a sheep is not easy and requires tools too.

Are all their means to produce food forbidden? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Here I referred to what I read from Midnight veterans, and it may not be true to the word of the setting. I have been told it was forbidden to make tools, and that all animals such as horses or ox had disappeared (except for a few wild horses secretely preserved in the wilds).

I have been told that all horses and ox (or rather boros) had dispappeared because the Orcs had no use for horses, and all that kind of animals had long been eaten by starving human peasants.

Rereading what I have been told, I think I misinterpreted the fact that there was no more herd animals into "it is forbidden to raise them anymore." My mistake...

The things that are illegal to those not serving the shadow are mainly weapons, knowledge, magic, and travel (though you can get a permit for that).

Okay. But how do human survive if they can't buy what it takes to preserve food. Salt cannot be produced locally and is mandatory to preserve food from harvest to the next harvest.

How do they make barrels, canva bags, crates ? You cannot recycle material to have new ones.

How do they preserve the food produced ?

They're not forbidden to raise livestock or cultivate fields.

Okay, it is not forbidden... But it is simply impossible. In order to raise livestock, cultivate fields, and preserve the production you need an awful lot of tools, means to produce clothes, specialised cratfsmen, certain kinds of buildings (warehouse, mills, for example)...

It is transported by those ordered to bring food to the cities. Slaves probably.

Transporting implies the use of many items, such as carts, barrels, crates, pots, bags. Many of this items cannot be produced locally, and are still required for the transport. They require lots of of different tools to be made, repaired, even used.

It is also very unlikely that they would transport food without the help of animals. Moreover, even slaves need to be fed, they also need to be controlled, and the ones controlling the slaves need food too.

In the villages, they will store it at home, and in the cities, there are bound to be foodstores.

Once again, storing things is not that easy... You need to have a way to preserve what is stored. Very often this means using salt. And salt cannot be recycled, nor (most of the time) produced locally. It needs to be extracted, transported.

Remember that not all humans live in slavery. In fact, almost all legates are humans, there are the traitor princes and all the collaborators. They want food, too. And they get it. They won't go to bed hungry, that's for sure.

I am not so sure they can be fed at all... Slaves cannot work without tools, nor food.

The humans of eredane aren't forbidden to produce weapons. In fact, many blacksmithes are forced to produce weapons.
They're only forbidden to own weapons. The weapons the human blacksmiths create go to the shadow.

Okay, this means that other people extract, transform, transport metal for them. It also mean people produce, transport, wood for them. People raise live stock to produce leather for them. People cultivate plants that wiill be transfomed into canva. Of course, they all need to be fed, even minimally... And fed all year long.

It's similar with food. You won't see legates on the fields or herding sheep. The occupied humans do produce wares and food. It's just that they're very heavily taxed and may not keep much. If you hold anything back and are found out, the punishment will be very harsh - I think they had a short story sidebar about that very topic.

So there is MUCH more production than I was told. It also means that the whole society has to be kept functionning in order to produce things for the Shadow. Once again, much like occupied France during WW2...

 

[S'mon]

Here I referred to what I read from Midnight veterans, and it may not be true to the word of the setting. I have been told it was forbidden to make tools, and that all animals such as horses or ox had disappeared (except for a few wild horses secretely preserved in the wilds).

I have been told that all horses and ox (or rather boros) had dispappeared because the Orcs had no use for horses, and all that kind of animals had long been eaten by starving human peasants.

Yeah, with Midnight you need to ignore a lot of what you're told, especially by a certain sort of Midnight GM/player I call the 'rotten potato' guys. These are the ones who write Midnight netbooks where mundane diseases have DC 30 Fort saves, Shadow minions are always at least 8 CRs above party level, and 'adventures' seem to consist of hunting for rotten potatoes in blighted fields while being rained on and catching pneumonia (Fort save DC 30 or lose d6 CON, roll again in d3 days, etc).

Our Midnight GM Stalkingblue looked at the setting, and made a lot of decisions about what worked and what didn't. First thing she did was reduce the map scale to something workable. There are still cows etc, the humans grow food - especially meat which feeds the orcs - and BTW it still rains in Erethor. You get stuff like "It hasn't rained for ten years" - in the forest - you just have to ignore it.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

Other than maybe Kingdoms of Kalamar, I can't think of any game setting that deals with the level of minutae you're wanting.

If you like the rest of the Midnight world enough, then make the changes.
Or does it ignore the little things so much that it is impossible to reconcile it with your wants?