Questions about the Midnight setting

[Tymophil]

Other than maybe Kingdoms of Kalamar, I can't think of any game setting that deals with the level of minutae you're wanting.

If you like the rest of the Midnight world enough, then make the changes.
Or does it ignore the little things so much that it is impossible to reconcile it with your wants?

I think you got it wrong on what I want. Most D&D universe don't bother with such mundane details, just because, they are taken for granted. There is nothing that gets in the way of this supension of disbelief. Food is produced the "normal" way, because nothing says it cannot be produced this way.

Now, I think it is clear that Midnight is not for me... Not because it is fantasy, nor because it is dark, but because I don't believe it can exist.

Thanks for everybody's input.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

This is a sound advice, for sure. But suspension of disbelief is important.

My concern is that it requires much more than mere craftsmen to have something made. In fact, it requires a whole chain : people extracting (metal, wood)

Slaves do most of the extraction of metal. As for wood, villagers can do that on their own if they have a forest nearby.

or producing raw material (leather, linen, wool, etc.),

Leather can be made from local resources, if you know how. Those villages who don't have access to someone who does will have to do with rather filthy hides...

And as for wool, that's what you have sheep for. In old times, plenty of people spun their wool themselves. My parents still have an old spinner's wheel in their house (now supporting their stereo), and in fact, spinning wool was a common activity in the families of peasants when they couldn't work outside of the house.

people transporting those raw materials,

Gnomes are still allowed to travel and trade. And no doubt there are some independent human traders as well, who are either good at hiding or good at bribing officials - or both.

people working for the support of the transportation (raising horses, making carts, maintaining roads and bridges), people transforming raw material into another form of not-so-raw material , people making clothes for members of this chain and people working to feed the members of this chain.

Yes, the trade infrastructure has broken down to a large degree. Yes, that is indeed fairly nasty for the population, even on top of the general oppression by the minions of the Shadow.

But it is possible for individual villages to be self-sufficient for the most part - after all, they have done that in the history of real world earth, too. After the fall of the Roman Empire, there were few trade networks throughout Central Europe, either - but obviously people still survived.

If I got the Midnight setting right, no link in this chain is allowed to exist... The only chance would have to have the whole human society support the war effort, but this would mean maintaining most of the society together, like France under the Nazi rule. Nothing like what Midnight tries to portray.

You can hide things, people, activities not a whole society...

Okay, I can portray an occupied nation. But, destroying all the means to produce food by forbidding some important things would make the system collapse real fast. As I said, such a society would disappear in two years at the most.

You are trying to compare Midnight to the Renaissance and later eras, but a more accurate comparison would be the early Dark Ages.

If you talk about the XXIst century world you may be right. But in a medieval-like world it is not so. The mere rumour of war was enough to send tribes, nations on the road. Just look at what did the Mongol invasion ! Even a severe draught was enough to have people move on. Some nations disappeared, cities were deserted, there population disappearing (most likely dead for 90%, and another 10% absorbed by the neighbours).

This is what should have happened in the Midnight setting.

That already has happened. Most of civilization is gone, except in the South.

 

[Renshai]

So I did not expected more from AtS.

As the guy that runs that site, all I can say is.. wow.. just... wow... way to judge an entire community without even taking the time to ask them your question. I know the community there well and you would get some very informative answers to your question if you'd take the time to ask over there. You wouldn't be treated with hostility, I can't imagine why you'd even think that.

 

[Tymophil]

As the guy that runs that site, all I can say is.. wow.. just... wow... way to judge an entire community without even taking the time to ask them your question. I know the community there well and you would get some very informative answers to your question if you'd take the time to ask over there. You wouldn't be treated with hostility, I can't imagine why you'd even think that.

I was referring to new information, not hostility. The people at Midnight Sundering were very friendly, and tried to provide as much information as they could.

As most posters that answered me are also regular posters at AtS, I thought I'd get the very same information, but in english...

 

[Tymophil]

You are trying to compare Midnight to the Renaissance and later eras, but a more accurate comparison would be the early Dark Ages.

You are wrong on the picture I have in my mind.

In fact, I had in mind the Gauls and the Dark Ages world... Both "worlds" relied heavily on trade and craft. You can find traces of trades in archeological sites for those "barbarian" eras. You can find plates that came from thousands of miles away in tiny villages of Gauls. And they could create jewels that were sold in Greece...

In fact this world relied heavily of trade. It is also true for the Dark Ages. Just because some call it Dark doesn't mean it was that dark. In France, we never use that term because it is plain wrong. We call it High Middle Ages.

Trade was essential in those days, as it is now, maybe more so. Some things had to travel all around the world, as they were vital. Salt was one such thing. The Midnight Setting as described by some people (I cannot say what is really inside the books, and that's why I ask here) cannot allow for this minimal trade.

Just look at the Spinner wheel you mention and ask yourself : "What raw materials are needed to make one ? Where do they come from ? Who made it ? What skill(s) does it require to be made ? Which parts had to be changed often ? How long would it take to make one ?" You'll find that trade and craft are needed for this tool to be made and used.

We often draw a false picture of the ancient and medieval times...

Best regards and thanks for your input.

 

[Yair]

I like Midnight, but I must agree that there are some elements therein that really don't make much sense. Not having rain in the forest for 10 years is a good example. I don't think the work needed to "convert" the setting to your liking is that great, however. I basically find it's a very inspiritng setting, and don't find it difficult to imagine a slightly different - and for me, more realistic - Midnight.

I must agree that the Dark Ages, just post the fall of Rome, are an excellent comparison to the setting as I see it. And yes, there IS trade. The gnomes on the river, for example, are great traders - and not very loyal. Why? Why doesn't the Shadow replace them or destroy them? In my version of Midnight - because it knows the continent-wide trade they supply is very much needed, and that attempting to replace them with less skilled traders may cost it more than the damage their disloyalty breeds.

Overall, I see the setting as one where a feudal king conquered the lands and is taxing it as high as it can bear. In places he taxed too much, and they became desolate (ruined cities, lost halfling communities...). Some places rebelled or refused to capitulate, leading him to commit genocide - clearing the northern reaches and importing his own people, the Orcs, in. But for the most part that people aren't really any worse than if they were under the reign of a particularly harsh king - complete with local barons taxing river crossings, robber barons driven to become outlaws by the king's demands, tax audits and raids, disallowing them the commoners to own weapons or warhorses, disallowing the lowly vassals to travel from their lord's lands, and so on. The picture isn't really much different from that of the harsher side of Dark Age feudalism.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

In fact, I had in mind the Gauls and the Dark Ages world... Both "worlds" relied heavily on trade and craft. You can find traces of trades in archeological sites for those "barbarian" eras. You can find plates that came from thousands of miles away in tiny villages of Gauls. And they could create jewels that were sold in Greece...

Well, jewels are worthless now. Plates are made locally. So trade with these things might have been profitable back then, but that's still more of a luxury than really neccessary for life.

In fact this world relied heavily of trade. It is also true for the Dark Ages. Just because some call it Dark doesn't mean it was that dark. In France, we never use that term because it is plain wrong. We call it High Middle Ages.

France inherited well-established trade routes from the Romans. If you went farther east, to regions where the Romans hadn't been to, trade became much sparser.

Trade was essential in those days, as it is now, maybe more so. Some things had to travel all around the world, as they were vital. Salt was one such thing. The Midnight Setting as described by some people (I cannot say what is really inside the books, and that's why I ask here) cannot allow for this minimal trade.

That's what those gnomes and the cleverer sort of hidden human traders were for. There is some trade in Midnight. Just not nearly as much as there used to be.

Just look at the Spinner wheel you mention and ask yourself : "What raw materials are needed to make one ? Where do they come from ? Who made it ? What skill(s) does it require to be made ? Which parts had to be changed often ? How long would it take to make one ?" You'll find that trade and craft are needed for this tool to be made and used.

The one my parents have is made out of metal, but it's probably only from the 19th century or so. Older spinning wheels were mostly made from wood, which can be gathered locally. The few metal parts could be scrounged from ruins and remade into something more appropriate. After all, there used to be a lot more people around, so it's not so difficult to find something useful in abandoned houses...

And if that's too difficult, you can always made a hand spindle, which is very easy to create even with minimal resources.

And I'd say that in many regions most people have one or two ranks in a Craft skill or two. Those who haven't... have died by now.

We often draw a false picture of the ancient and medieval times...

Yes, there was a lot more trade going on in many times than people today might suspect. However, much of it was strictly speaking not neccessary to survival - just useful.