Questions for the designers.

[JohnSnow]

Bravo. I'd sig this if it would fit. A perfect summary of why I hate dragon color-coding. (Well, that plus I like more variety in dragon appearance. I don't want all my fire-breathing dragons to have to be red.)

Well for what it's worth, I'm just going to use the dragon "colors" to represent different "breeds" of dragon. All fire breathers will be red (or whatever metallic gets that breath weapon). They may not physically be "red," but they'll use the red dragon's stats.

But that's just my plan. Easy houserule.

 

[Dausuul]

Well for what it's worth, I'm just going to use the dragon "colors" to represent different "breeds" of dragon. All fire breathers will be red (or whatever metallic gets that breath weapon). They may not physically be "red," but they'll use the red dragon's stats.

But that's just my plan. Easy houserule.

Oh, I do the same thing. Sometimes I switch the element up, too (green dragon stats but cold breath weapon).

It's not hard to fix, I just find it irritating.

 

[Xethreau]

As both a chemistry/science freak and a person who couldn't tell a Copper, Bronze, or Brass dragon apart, I am really glad to see the Adamant and Iron dragon appear in the stead of the two alloy dragons (Bronze and Brass). In fact, I would be willing to see a Mithril dragon, if we are going to move on to fantasy metals.

Plus, they look rad! The Adamantine and Iron (I couldn't find him on facebook...) dragons are more distinguishable than their cousin dragons. As someone who grew up on RuneScape and FinalFantasy, I sort of wish the Admantine Dragon was green, but I am definitely not complaining here.

 

[GreatLemur]

Yet another "I never knew or cared about the differences between copper, bronze, and brass dragons", here. But, yeah, dragons based on alloys seems damned silly, to me.

And neither of these things affect the gameplay at all.

Something doesn't have to affect gameplay to be worth changing. Better fluff is better, regardless of a few fans' irrational interest in the dragon status quo of previous editions.

I'm not sure that "Silver, Adamantine, Iron" are really that easier to distinguish from "Copper, Bronze, Brass."

How do different folks picture those three metals?

That's a good question. I'm not really sure what adamantine looks like, but in Marvel comics, adamantium normally looks just like steel.

I'd expect that, in the artwork, silver dragons will be protrayed as as very bright, shiny, gray-white, and probably somewhat reflective, while iron dragons will be much a much darker, less shiny gray, possibly almost black. Adamantine dragons? I keep picturing them as a shiny blue-white, but I've got no idea if that's where they'll go with it. (Yeah, I can't even look at the pic on Facebook. No social networking sites at work.)

 

[The Little Raven]

I'm not sure that "Silver, Adamantine, Iron" are really that easier to distinguish from "Copper, Bronze, Brass."

How do different folks picture those three metals?

Well, silver is super shiny.
Iron is a dull gray.
Adamantine is dark, nearly black.

 

[TwinBahamut]

From the images we have, Adamantine Dragons are black, so that is how they are different than Silver dragons. I imagine Iron Dragons will follow the patterns of other metallic dragons and integrate the color of metallic corrosion and ions into the color scheme (blue-greens on copper dragons, for example), so they will be grey and/or black and will have rusty red colors as well, possibly being very red in color. After all, iron and steel don't have to look all polished and silver-like.

It might not be relevant, but for those who find this stuff interesting, the Japanese word for steel is hagane, literally "red metal", and iron is kurogane or "black metal".

 

[Incenjucar]

I wonder if they'll ever come out with an arsenical bronze dragon...

Maybe some sort of corruption template....

 

[bgaesop]

I just look forward to being able to put a Swack Iron Dragon in my games.

 

[pemerton]

And neither of these things affect the gameplay at all.

Actually this is not true. Indistinguishable monsters give the GM a degree of narrative control, as the players are not able to use their knowledge of what sort of monster they are facing to inform their choices. Thus, in practice, the GM gets greater say over what encounters the party has to deal with.

Distinguishable monsters, on the other hand, give the players a degree of narrative control. By knowing what they are facing, they can adapt their play as they think appropriate.

This is the precise rationale given by WoTC for changing Demons and Devils, and it works equally well for Dragons.

Since this is apparently a thread for flogging dead horses after they've long since died, I'll give a few more kicks to the carcass sitting next to me.

Agreed. But that's true to some extent of the whole 4e forum!

Dragon symmetry is one of the least excusable D&Disms in the game. By establishing an unwritten rule that the most defining characteristic of a dragon is his color, lousy dragon design is assured.

First, it creates the need for a LOT of different types of dragons. And once you've done that, you need to give all those dragons characteristics that are actually different.

True, but those characteristics need not be the meaningless ones you indicated, like terrain and energy type. I get the impression in 4e that they will be differences that are of tactical significance for the play of the game.

Second, it ensures that D&D dragon art is uninspired.

True. Perhaps this is a price to pay for easy distinguishability, which does (in turn) serve an important system goal given the design logic of 4e.

 

[Derren]

Since this is apparently a thread for flogging dead horses after they've long since died, I'll give a few more kicks to the carcass sitting next to me.
[snip]

Wrong horse.
WotC doesn't change the symmertry. It only replaces two dragons with two other dragons with the only reason that their scale color were the same as an alloy and this reason is nonsense. Its just a scale color. They are not made out of metal.

Or do people also complain about the green dragon because without a yellow dragon it shouldn't exist? (Green = Blue+Yellow).

And when you tell the players that they see a "bronze looking dragon" I am sure that they will know that they are facing a bronze dragon. If, for some reason you say that the PCs don't know how a metal looks and instead describe the color to them then (How do you do this with chromatic dragons by the way?) then have fun with describing shiny gray, not so shiny gray and really dull gray. Or how about describing the difference between a black and a adamantine dragon?