Level Up (A5E) Questions From Someone Who Was Looking At A5E Right Before The WOTC/OGL Nonsense

[trashHeap]

Hey sorry, ive lurked on and off for years but never needed to make an account till now; and apologies, if this is covered elsewhere. I mostly run a lot of indie systems and OSR content but did run a D&D 5e campaign a year or two ago out of the core rulebooks.

I've been looking at A5E. I've liked what ive read here and there about A5E but I've seen conflicting reports at how "compatible" Level Up A5E is with D&D 5e content. I was already thinking I might have some interest in running the new edition of Midnight down the road. How well would A5E serve as the base for such a game?

Regardless if it would be a good base for Midnight, is there any benefit to grabbing A5E now ? Or should I just wait for the de-OGL-ified revision ? If I buy the PDFs now will they be updated to the de-OGL-ified version when it comes out?

 

[Morrus]

I can't comment on Midnight. I'm not familiar with it. But we run WotC adventures just fine out of the box with A5E.

 

[TheHand]

I'm also not familiar with Midnight, but I've been using A5e seamlessly with official D&D content/adventures, Kobold Press adventures/monsters, some stuff from Monte Cooke, and a smattering of other 3rd parties.

 

[dave2008]

Regardless if it would be a good base for Midnight, is there any benefit to grabbing A5E now ? Or should I just wait for the de-OGL-ified revision ? If I buy the PDFs now will they be updated to the de-OGL-ified version when it comes out?

To be clear there is no guarantee there will be a de-OGL-ified version of A5e. That is an option they are working on, but it is not a done deal. I would go ahead and get it now if your interested.

 

[Pedantic]

A5e is very compatible with bringing in 5e materials, including subclasses, feats adventures and monsters. There's marginally more friction going the other way, but it's all pretty negligible.

 

[Matt Thomason]

To be clear there is no guarantee there will be a de-OGL-ified version of A5e. That is an option they are working on, but it is not a done deal. I would go ahead and get it now if your interested.

I'd also add that it's more likely any de-OGL-ified version might have to change some terminology, making it slightly more work to use with existing 5e material, another reason to get the current version while you can.

 

[Tazawa]

I'd also add that it's more likely any de-OGL-ified version might have to change some terminology, making it slightly more work to use with existing 5e material, another reason to get the current version while you can.

You don’t need to de-OGL-ify Level Up. It looks like existing OGL 1.0a products are safe from any threats from WotC. All that is needed is a method of making supporting materials for Level Up.

That’s pretty simple—adventures, campaign worlds, spells, monsters, sub-classes, etc. can easily be created for most games without relying on anything in the WotC SRDs. These types of content usually only refer to SRD content indirectly:

• 6 goblins wait in the bushes to ambush travellers
• the secret door can be detected with a DC 15 Perception check
• etc.

You don’t need to restate the rules. They are already available in the currently published Level Up rulebooks. They’re not going anywhere.

A simple reference document released under ORC or similar open license would be sufficient to provide support for the game. It could have significantly less material than the SRD and still be effective. People are smart enough to know where to look up the rules without you explicitly telling them.

 

[VanguardHero]

I'd also add that it's more likely any de-OGL-ified version might have to change some terminology, making it slightly more work to use with existing 5e material, another reason to get the current version while you can.

Oh no, they might have to change the term Bonus Action, which refers to something which is neither a bonus nor an Action!

 

[Morrus]

You don’t need to de-OGL-ify Level Up.

We do if we want to allow third parties to continue making material for it.

 

[Larnievc]

Hey sorry, ive lurked on and off for years but never needed to make an account till now; and apologies, if this is covered elsewhere. I mostly run a lot of indie systems and OSR content but did run a D&D 5e campaign a year or two ago out of the core rulebooks.

I've been looking at A5E. I've liked what ive read here and there about A5E but I've seen conflicting reports at how "compatible" Level Up A5E is with D&D 5e content. I was already thinking I might have some interest in running the new edition of Midnight down the road. How well would A5E serve as the base for such a game?

Regardless if it would be a good base for Midnight, is there any benefit to grabbing A5E now ? Or should I just wait for the de-OGL-ified revision ? If I buy the PDFs now will they be updated to the de-OGL-ified version when it comes out?

I’m running Curse of Strahd and Tyranny of Dragons with A5E and it works great. What’s Midnight?

 

[Micah Sweet]

We do if we want to allow third parties to continue making material for it.

That is of course providing that WotC can actually de-authorize the OGL 1.0a. Which is an open question.

 

[Matt Thomason]

That is of course providing that WotC can actually de-authorize the OGL 1.0a. Which is an open question.

It's also providing 3PPs want to continue with the risk of using the OGL after all of this anyway. The threat alone has been enough to trigger "fire sales" of people clearing out their OGL inventory, and for a number of large players to decide to set up an alternative license with clearer terms to assure us it will always be there. The problem is that until there's a test case, that risk of de-authorization will always hang over our heads. So it's a case of examining alternatives to decide if there is an option with less risk, and weighing up all the pros and cons.

For a game that doesn't use anything from WotC's SRDs and has zero risk of them claiming copyright infringement, it seems pretty clear-cut that there are - or at least will be - better licensing options. For a game that is based on their SRDs, it's obviously far more complicated and would require a lot of effort to totally divorce it from those SRDs and therefore any dependency on the OGL (Paizo seem to be happy that PF2 has done so)

 

[Tazawa]

We do if we want to allow third parties to continue making material for it.

Not necessarily. Assuming that you can keep selling existing Level Up rule books, which WotC does not seem to be contesting and rests on very solid legal foundation, you can make an abbreviated reference document under a new license that allows 3PP to support Level Up.

That reference document would contain only the original, non-derivative content in Level Up (of which there is plenty) that you want to share. It could also contain the basic non-copyrightable game mechanics (d20 resolution system, armor class, saving throws, hit points, advantage/disadvantage, etc.). It may be interesting to look at the impact of declaring that these are non-copyrightable game mechanics.

 

[Tazawa]

Not necessarily. Assuming that you can keep selling existing Level Up rule books, which WotC does not seem to be contesting and rests on very solid legal foundation, you can make an abbreviated reference document under a new license that allows 3PP to support Level Up.

That reference document would contain only the original, non-derivative content in Level Up (of which there is plenty) that you want to share. It could also contain the basic non-copyrightable game mechanics (d20 resolution system, armor class, saving throws, hit points, advantage/disadvantage, etc.). It may be interesting to look at the impact of declaring that these are non-copyrightable game mechanics.

The point is, there are a ton of 5e players out there with tons of 5e Player’s Handbooks. Level Up is likely the game that is closest to 5e, to the point that content from one game can be used in the other.

Make it easy for those players to pick up a Level Up adventure and play it. Most of an adventure is ‘Product Identity’ and rule content is either new for that adventure or referred to indirectly (e.g. 6 goblins in the bushes—everyone knows where to get the stats).

There’s no need to change the game: dexterity to agility, spell levels to spell circles, etc. These are all game mechanics that exist in hundreds of non-WotC games and can not be copyrighted.

Keep Level Up as it is and use a new license to open up support. But also allow those brave enough to use OGL 1.0(a) to support it using the Level Up SRD and other existing open game content.

 

[Faolyn]

I’m running Curse of Strahd and Tyranny of Dragons with A5E and it works great. What’s Midnight?

A friend of mine really likes that setting. It's basically, "What if Sauron won?" A bleak setting where the evil god and his minions are in charge and the other gods ran off and sealed the world behind them, everyone becomes undead because souls can't travel to the afterlife, most people are enslaved, etc.

 

[Larnievc]

A friend of mine really likes that setting. It's basically, "What if Sauron won?" A bleak setting where the evil god and his minions are in charge and the other gods ran off and sealed the world behind them, everyone becomes undead because souls can't travel to the afterlife, most people are enslaved, etc.

Crikey. Sounds like a grim place.

 

[Faolyn]

Crikey. Sounds like a grim place.

There are deer that have "evolved" to eat zombies.

It's more grimdark than grim.

 

[Larnievc]

There are deer that have "evolved" to eat zombies.

It's more grimdark than grim.

Sounds like a great interpretation of a Dying Earth setting.

 

[Nebulous]

I’m running Curse of Strahd and Tyranny of Dragons with A5E and it works great. What’s Midnight?

Midnight was originally a 3.x setting from Fantasy Flight games, imagined as if Sauron had won the war of the ring, subjugated the world, and the heroes are the only resistance left. It was epic, dark, fun, and had a huge amount of sourcebooks to go with the original game. I don't know what the remake will look like (different developer) but I can attest that the 3.5 corebook was amazing.

 

[corwyn77]

A friend of mine really likes that setting. It's basically, "What if Sauron won?" A bleak setting where the evil god and his minions are in charge and the other gods ran off and sealed the world behind them, everyone becomes undead because souls can't travel to the afterlife, most people are enslaved, etc.

I played in a game with that premise that used Iron Heroes. Had a blast.