Questions on Archers, Invisibility, and Hide

[Taren Nighteyes]

Please help me understand/confirm the "correct" way to adjudicate the following situations:

1) Archer with 5 levels of fighter and 6 of OotBI is complaining that she doesn't get to flank, and she should. My interpretation of the rules for flank make me believe the only way to flank is to have a melee weapon, not a bow. Sure, she no longer gets attacks of opportunity against her when she is in melee combat, but she still doesn't get flanking. Am I right? What are your opinions?

2) Same archer from question 1 has improved invisibility cast on her during combat. She starts turning the BBEG into a pin cushion. She is standing 30 ft away from the BBEG. What would be the spot check necessary to move and attack her during the BBEG turn? (I have seen some conflicting opinions/rules/information from various sources. I appreciate any help on clarifying the issue. I do understand that the 50% miss would still apply regardless of the spot check results)

3) Lastly, I would like to know how hide and invisibility stack - if they stack. Would you need to make seperate spot checks....one to find the hiding spot, and another to see the invisibile person? Is it plus 20 to your hide check? What are the opinions of the august rules lawyering board members?

Thanks for your help guys! I am sure the answers to my questions will be more than satisfied based on my previous experiences!

Taren Nighteyes

 

[AuraSeer]

1) Archer with 5 levels of fighter and 6 of OotBI is complaining that she doesn't get to flank, and she should. My interpretation of the rules for flank make me believe the only way to flank is to have a melee weapon, not a bow.

You are correct. Ranged weapons do not benefit from a flanking bonus, or allow allies to get one.

If the PrC gave the ability to flank with a ranged weapon, it would say so.

2) Same archer from question 1 has improved invisibility cast on her during combat. She starts turning the BBEG into a pin cushion. She is standing 30 ft away from the BBEG. What would be the spot check necessary to move and attack her during the BBEG turn?

The Spot check to notice her presence is DC 20, but the arrows coming from thin air probably make that check unnecessary. To pinpoint her location is Spot DC 40.

Using sound is easier; since the archer is in combat 30 feet away, pinpointing her location with Listen is DC 23.

You can find the rules for invisibility on this SRD page.

 

[Kershek]

Please help me understand/confirm the "correct" way to adjudicate the following situations:

1) Archer with 5 levels of fighter and 6 of OotBI is complaining that she doesn't get to flank, and she should. My interpretation of the rules for flank make me believe the only way to flank is to have a melee weapon, not a bow. Sure, she no longer gets attacks of opportunity against her when she is in melee combat, but she still doesn't get flanking. Am I right? What are your opinions?

A bow doesn't threaten any squares, so no, she doesn't flank with it, either.

2) Same archer from question 1 has improved invisibility cast on her during combat. She starts turning the BBEG into a pin cushion. She is standing 30 ft away from the BBEG. What would be the spot check necessary to move and attack her during the BBEG turn? (I have seen some conflicting opinions/rules/information from various sources. I appreciate any help on clarifying the issue. I do understand that the 50% miss would still apply regardless of the spot check results)

Using Song & Silence rules, it's -20 to hide vs spot when attacking like this. Use DMG rules for an invisible attacker on top of this.

3) Lastly, I would like to know how hide and invisibility stack - if they stack. Would you need to make seperate spot checks....one to find the hiding spot, and another to see the invisibile person? Is it plus 20 to your hide check? What are the opinions of the august rules lawyering board members?

It's one check - the DMG explains all the rules on invisible attackers.

 

[guido1999]

From The Sage:

TSRsage@aol.com

To : james_serra99@hotmail.com

Subject : Re: Flanking with reach or ranged weapons

Date : Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:23:01 EDT

In a message dated 4/8/03 6:00:59 AM, james_serra99@hotmail.com writes:

<< Can you ever flank with a reach or ranged weapon?<<

Reach yes, ranged no.

>> If you use a bow within 5ft of an enemy can you count as flanking if you have a party member on the opposite side?<<

No, you don't threaten an area with ranged weapon (so no flnking).

>>Some Prestige classes such as the Lasher and the Order of
the Bow Initiate allow you to use ranged weapons, the whip and the bow respectively, within melee range without provoking an AOO.<<

You still don't threaten an area.

<<Some of these classes also allow you to make AOOs using a ranged weapon. The Pearless Archer from the Silver Marches campaign accessory gives the ability to use a bow to threaten as if were using a reach weapon. In these cases, would you be able to flank when using a ranged weapon? >>

Techically,you have to threaten with a melee weapon. I wouldn;t let a peerless archer flank, but your game wo;t crash and burn if you do.

 

[Zenon]

I'll take a shot at #2:

The rules for this can be found in the DMG around pg 70-something to 80-something (don't have it in front of me to give an exact page #). Under the Invisibility paragraph, there are the details of how to pinpoint the 5' square. Even with the square pinpointed, you still receive the 50% miss chance.

Ahh, they have it in the SRD (the table doesn't come out aligned right):

INVISIBILITY
Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a Spot check (DC 20). The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, or an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature, is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds at such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (50% miss chance).

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.)
A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the exact location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the invisible creature’s location.

Table: Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures
Invisible Creature Is: DC
---------------------- --
In combat or speaking 0
Moving at half speed Move Silently check
Moving at full speed Move Silently check at –4
Running or charging Move Silently check at –20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15
A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot areas using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character inflicts no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). At your option, a particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from one-half concealment (20% miss chance).

A creature with the scent ability can detect invisible creatures as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss roll rather than two 50% miss rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.

 

[Taren Nighteyes]

Summary

Thanks everyone....so...to recap:

1) No flanking bonus. Does not threaten the square.

2) To pinpoint a invisible character with Spot, it would be DC of 40? (The fact she is firing a bow makes it DC20 to notice the presence and add 20 more for the fact you want to pinpoint her location....is this correct?) The DC for a listen check would be 23 (base 20 + 1/10ft)

3) Hide and invisibility stack. Look to the DMG for the DCs, but there will be only check.

Let me know if I have misinterpretted something.

Thanks again!

Taren Nighteyes

 

[Ysgarran]

Questions #2 and #3 are pretty straightforward and have been answered by other people.

I think the question regarding about how the hide skill and invisibility interact is the most interesting because there are no concrete examples in the DMG about this.

I asked a similiar question about this a while back:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20537&highlight=hide

My current interpretation is to let the character have a single hide roll to the character who is attempting to hide and who is also invisible. The character would get a circumstance bonus (+5?) but regardless of what the character rolled for the hide, the min. could not be below a 20 DC. The spotting character would get his normal single roll to spot.

3) Lastly, I would like to know how hide and invisibility stack - if they stack. Would you need to make seperate spot checks....one to find the hiding spot, and another to see the invisibile person? Is it plus 20 to your hide check? What are the opinions of the august rules lawyering board members?

Thanks for your help guys! I am sure the answers to my questions will be more than satisfied based on my previous experiences!

Taren Nighteyes

 

[Zenon]

Re: Summary

2) To pinpoint a invisible character with Spot, it would be DC of 40? (The fact she is firing a bow makes it DC20 to notice the presence and add 20 more for the fact you want to pinpoint her location....is this correct?) The DC for a listen check would be 23 (base 20 + 1/10ft)

I think you would add the +1/10 ft to the Spot check also, making it:

Spot DC 20, +20 (to pinpoint), +3 (+10/10 ft, range 30') for a total of DC 43. The Listen DC looks correct at 23.

The Scent rules are useful for tracking invisible characters, keep this one in mind:

SCENT
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.

The creature can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a standard action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

The creature can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry's odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.

Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures such as sharks, however, have the scent ability and can use it in the water easily.

False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Wilderness Lore DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.

If the BBEG was, say, a minotaur, then your proposed "move-then attack" of an invisible creature would work. It's Scent ability would let him notice the OooBI within 30' (still air), he could move in that direction and pinpoint the 5' square automatically when within 5 feet of it.

 

[Kershek]

Re: Re: Summary

I think you would add the +1/10 ft to the Spot check also, making it:

Spot DC 20, +20 (to pinpoint), +3 (+10/10 ft, range 30') for a total of DC 43. The Listen DC looks correct at 23.

If they just shot an arrow, make the spot DC -20. So, it would be DC 23 to spot the right square. However, it's still a 50% miss chance due to invisibility.

 

[Taren Nighteyes]

"If they just shot an arrow, make the spot DC -20. So, it would be DC 23 to spot the right square. However, it's still a 50% miss chance due to invisibility."

Why reduce the Spot DC to 23? Where did the negative 20 come from?

Just wanted to know the thought/rules behind the number.

Thanks again!

Taren Nighteyes