Questions on Archers, Invisibility, and Hide

[Kershek]

"If they just shot an arrow, make the spot DC -20. So, it would be DC 23 to spot the right square. However, it's still a 50% miss chance due to invisibility."

Why reduce the Spot DC to 23? Where did the negative 20 come from?

Just wanted to know the thought/rules behind the number.

Thanks again!

Taren Nighteyes

Song & Silence has the following rule:

Sniping: If you've already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again as a move action. You suffer a -20 circumstance penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

 

[LokiDR]

To notice there is a moving invisible creature in the area is a DC 20. To pinpoint the location is +20, so 40. Apply range pentalties as appropriate (+1/10').

If the invisible creature is firing an arrow or otherwise making it's presence known, the check to notice there is a invisible creature is not neccessary, but pinpointing them is just as hard. Apply a circumstance bonus of up to about 10 if the invisible person is pinpointing themselves (firing arrows), but no more of a bonus as they could still take a 5' step.

The above is not an example of sniping, so Song and Silence does not apply. Listen checks work the same way, with DC as noted by others.

Hiding and invisible is a bit harder. I think the best solution I have seen is giving +20 to the hide check. So, to notice they are in the area is spot DC hidecheck+20. To pinpoint them is spot DC hide check +40.

 

[Christian]

Loki, I think Kershek is making a very natural extension to the S&S rule regarding sniping. Remember, the arrow becomes visible again the instant it leaves the bow, which reasonably ought to make it a lot easier to figure out where the archer is standing (compared to the invisible person just standing there invisibly). One could argue about the details of the adjustment, but the rule from S&S is both reasonable and a good precedent. This is definitely how I'd rule IMG.

 

[LokiDR]

Loki, I think Kershek is making a very natural extension to the S&S rule regarding sniping. Remember, the arrow becomes visible again the instant it leaves the bow, which reasonably ought to make it a lot easier to figure out where the archer is standing (compared to the invisible person just standing there invisibly). One could argue about the details of the adjustment, but the rule from S&S is both reasonable and a good precedent. This is definitely how I'd rule IMG.

I agree with a circumstance bonus to the person trying to pinpoint the person, but this NOT the situation the sniping rules were trying to cover. As such, the flat -20 is not appropriate. The person could take one shot and a single move. Now how useful is that bowshot to pinpoint them?

 

[HeavyG]

To notice there is a moving invisible creature in the area is a DC 20. To pinpoint the location is +20, so 40. Apply range pentalties as appropriate (+1/10').

The "Spotter distracted" penalty of -5 to the spot check might also apply, if there is a general melee going on in the area.

I would also give a circumstance penalty to any listen check if there are people fighting in the room.

 

[Drasmir]

If I may be so brazen as to comment on my DM's thread, I would say the following:

1) Archer does not threaten and therefore cannot flank.

2) Spot check DC = 40.

3) No book rules on stacking invisibility and hide so I would say house rule it if you want.

-Blades (a.k.a. Drasmir)

 

[Taren Nighteyes]

Nice try Drasmir.

If you've read most of the posts thoroughly, you'd realize there is some debate/disagreement on whether the sniping rules ought be used for invisible attackers or not....but not that there shouldn't be some sort of circumstance bonus to Spot....soo...

1. No flanking. End of case.

2. House rule or sniper rule from S&S. I am thinking of basing the circumstance bonus on number of attacks....treating the arrows as tracers. The more tracers that are fired, the easier it is to pinpoint the attacker. (+5/attack to spot)

3. Hide combined with invisibility - add 20 cirumstance bonus to the hide check.

Any other opinions or suggestions?

Thanks!

Taren Nighteyes

 

[LokiDR]

The "Spotter distracted" penalty of -5 to the spot check might also apply, if there is a general melee going on in the area.

I would also give a circumstance penalty to any listen check if there are people fighting in the room.

Good call. Circumstance penalties are where the DM is (and is supposed) to run the game to his tastes. I don't believe a flat 40 DC to pinpoint the person is neccesarily the most accurate number. It is the easiest number to pick.

 

[Christian]

I agree with a circumstance bonus to the person trying to pinpoint the person, but this NOT the situation the sniping rules were trying to cover. As such, the flat -20 is not appropriate. The person could take one shot and a single move. Now how useful is that bowshot to pinpoint them?

Good point. I was thinking about a character standing still or taking a 5' step while unloading a full attack. That -20 looks about right for that, to me. With a shoot & move, I don't think I'd give any DC penalty to the Spot check unless the opponent had readied an attack.

 

[LokiDR]

Good point. I was thinking about a character standing still or taking a 5' step while unloading a full attack. That -20 looks about right for that, to me. With a shoot & move, I don't think I'd give any DC penalty to the Spot check unless the opponent had readied an attack.

I think the simplest answer would be Taren's.

I am thinking of basing the circumstance bonus on number of attacks....treating the arrows as tracers. The more tracers that are fired, the easier it is to pinpoint the attacker. (+5/attack to spot)

The full answer would DC 40 + range penalties + distration penalties(-5 if in combat) + circumstance bonus. The bonus would be based on how much the person moved, how many arrows they fired, ect. The bonuse shouldn't exceed 20.

That is DC 28 to pinpoint the stationary improved invis archer 30' away. 28 is a nice number, right?