Questions on "Silence" Spell

[javcs]

Joyous Noise, bard spell, I believe, albeit from Song and Silence, so 3.0e, I don't know if it has been updated in 3.5e, counters and dispels Silence.

 

[irdeggman]

Joyous Noise, bard spell, I believe, albeit from Song and Silence, so 3.0e, I don't know if it has been updated in 3.5e, counters and dispels Silence.

I think that is the one that made it's way into the Spell Compendium and is a bard only no verbal component spell.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Its from the SRD (WotC site) but I will check my 2nd printing (collector's edition) text for any "stealth" errata, I'm pretty sure I had before and it was still there.

I don't know what printing it was. I know that, as of the current printings of the PHB, it's "most." I know this because I have it on my shelf beside me as I type this.

I have only seen one new spell (in the Spell Compendium) that is a bard only spell and has no V component. I still feel they messed that up since it is in direct contrast to the core rule and the core rule meshes with the rule on Silent Spell.

There are several others in more recent books.

 

[Mr Funtastic]

I think that is the one that made it's way into the Spell Compendium and is a bard only no verbal component spell.

Indeed...


JOYFUL NOISE
Abjuration
Level: Bard 1
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation centered on you
Duration: Concentration; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

It doesn't dispel silence, but counters its effects while the bard concentrates.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

So, how about the thundering weapon question?

Do you all go with Alpha Polaris? Because that's what I think too.

 

[isoChron]

The sonic weapon ability (+1d6 sonic damage) does work in an area of silence. It's explicitly spelled out in the description of the enhancement. (Don't know the book right now. Complete something.)

The SRD remains silent on thundering but it is described as a loud roar, meaning the effect would normally be surpressed in the area.

For myself it would be fair if both or none would work in an zone of silence.

 

[Alpha Polaris]

The only sonic I know about is from the Mini Handbook, and it's d4. Moreover, the text does not say it works in a zone of silence:

Sonic: Upon command, a sonic weapon is surrounded with
waves of sound energy. The sonic energy does not harm the
wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A
sonic weapon deals an extra 1d4 points of sonic damage on a successful
hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the
sonic energy upon their ammunition.
Moderate evocation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor,
sound burst; Price +1 bonus.
Sonic Burst: A sonic burst weapon functions as a sonic
weapon that also explodes with sonic energy upon striking a
successful critical hit. If the weapon normally has a ×2 critical
multiplier, add an extra 1d8 points of sonic damage each time
you successfully score a critical hit. For weapons with a ×3 multiplier,
add 2d8 points of sonic damage; for a ×4 multiplier, add
3d8 points of sonic damage. Bows, crossbows, and slings so
crafted bestow the sonic energy upon their ammunition. This
effect activates even if the creature struck is not subject to critical
hits (roll to see if a critical hit occurs, then apply the extra
damage if appropriate). Even if the sonic ability is not active,
the weapon still deals its extra sonic damage on a successful
critical hit.
Strong evocation; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor,
sound burst; Price +2 bonus.

The last, italicized sentence means that the burst effect kicks in even if the sonic effect has not been activated -- by a command word, as usual -- not that it works in circonstances where sonic damages are negated.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't know what printing it was. I know that, as of the current printings of the PHB, it's "most." I know this because I have it on my shelf beside me as I type this.

QUOTE]


Checked my Collector's edition "Special Edition printing 2004" and indeed the text ahs been changed there - yet more "stealth" errata.

Personally I don't know why they did it nor why they needed to add a sentence to the rules that states "Most bard spells have a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)." That sentence merely takes up space since it has no real value, whereas it when it said "All bard spells . . ." it had a specific rules meaning.

Also IMO it was always an important part of the bard class to tie everything they do into some sort of "entertainment" which in this case translated intor "verbal components" for spells.

Seems like they (WotC) just wanted a way to introduce some neat-sounding spells that bards could use. They didn't even bother with changing the text for Silent Spell (it still can't be applied to bard spells) - even though they changes the rules on requiring all bard spels to have a verbal component.

Where if they had wanted to maintain the consistency of the class they could have made spells like Joyful Noise an immediate casting time spell and thus allow it to be cast before silence would be.

 

[two]

That hasn't actually been a problem IMC. Sure, the PCs hosed some enemy casters by doing this, but they also wasted silences countering spells like magic missile. (Suppose you encounter eight enemy mages. You know that they aren't equally powerful. Which ones do you include in the radius of silence? The same problem exists with one enemy mage with mirror images up - you don't know which one the real one is; where do you situate your effect?)

If the enemy is casting first level spells... you already won the battle! As for mirror images, we play like most people they are in the same square as the caster, so this is not a problem. As for 8 enemy mages - well, if the party is against 8 mages, they are all relatively low level. Silence takes one or two out per round; let fireball take the rest.

Silence is one of those really strange spells that does not look powerful to somebody flipping through the book. However, if the party uses teamwork and has some tactical sense it can get out of hand, very quickly.

I had a party that stumbled across the spell, and pretty soon had a cohort bard equipped with a Silence wand. The bard would inspire courage first round, and spend the rest of his time readying silence vs. enemy casters (unless they were going up vs. known casters, in which case the bard didn't inspire courage first, just readied a silence).

It was, in a word, brutally effective.

I counted one evening the cohort bard nullified over 10 spells 3rd level or higher, caused chaos as the enemy attempted to flee the silence radius, etc. The party would typically rush the spellcaster after the first silence/counter, leaving the enemy spellcaster in the silence radius with a melee guy in his face. 5' step back? Still in the silence radius. Move and cast? PC gets AOO, often a grapple or trip. Really bad stuff.

My typical GM counters were: spread out casters, silenced spells, attacking the damn cohort bard, etc.

But you can only do so much of that without getting meta-gamey. How can you justify attacking a bard who has not yet done anything (round 1, the bard is readying...) And how many "silence" meta-feats do the enemy casters have - which in any case lowers the spell level hitting the party?

In the end it was a real pain; the PC cleric got into the "silence" game too when they went against heavy enemy casters. It turned into "how can the GM get some spells off against us" battle of wills.

Not very fun.

Very effective for the party, however. I rewarded them with XP and gave Silence a will save. They still use it occasionally, but it is not the default "do every combat" routine.

A wand of silence for a party 5+ is very cheap, assuming all the PCs contribute a little. Which they did; not having enemy spells hitting you is worth a lot in the long run.

 

[isoChron]

Magic Item Compendium (3.5) has the Screaming (+1d4) and Screaming Burst (+1d8) ability for weapons which explicitly don't function in a zone of silence.

Ah !
Magic of Faerûn (3.0) has the Screaming (+1d6) ability for weapons and here it is explicitly written to function inside a zone of silence.

So Sonic damage seems to be toned down significantly in 3.5. With that facts in mind I wouldn't allow Thundering weapons to work in a zone of silence.

 

[evilbob]

2. When someone enters an area, on which a silence spell is active, is he entitled to a save to prevent the spell's effect?

I have had questions about this myself, and while I think that the spell should allow a saving throw for anyone entering the effect, it does seem that the general concensus (and probably the way the spell was intended) is that you do not. I guess the idea was that if you cast it on the ground near a caster, the caster can most likely just move and still cast (since most spells are a standard action), thus wasting the spell. However, as the posts in this thread have shown, most PCs are smart enough to avoid this simple pitfall. In fact, there's nothing in the rules against just casting silence on your melee tank or grapple machine and having them intentionally fail the save, and then running forward and attacking/grappling anything that casts spells. Then you have a moving spell effect that can target casters intelligently and adjust to situations (for 1 min/level, or less since its dismissable!).

I also have a problem with silence being a much better counterspell than dispell magic, since it's both a lower level spell and 100% guarenteed to work since you can simply cast the spell to take effect 1 inch in front of them and avoid the saving throw (unless the enemy just happens to always cast silenced spells, but quite frankly, there's no reason you couldn't be intelligent about your readied action and if you could see they were using no verbal components, just use dispell magic instead). It's fail-safe and fool-proof, and too powerful for a 2nd level spell.

I think silence needs an errata...