Questions on Water

DMH

First Post
Once in a while there is a thread on how food production, mostly with agriculture. My questions have to do with water supply.

Since cities pollute their water supply with sewage and industrial waste, where do city dwellers find safe drinking water? Shouldn't disease be more common due to this?

Deserts have an overabundance of giants (sand, sun), dragons (blue, brass, copper, brown, and yellow), and other huge animals (megapedes, nightmare beasts, ravagers, etc.). Where do they find their water supply?

What about fire, cloud and non-aquatic storm giants?

What about Underdark communities? They can be huge and yet it doesn't seem like there are enough rivers and lakes to support all of them. And aren't the lakes and seas contaminated with minerals?
 

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This would be a huge problem if the D&D universe ran on modern physics. Fortunately, it runs on Aristotelian physics: the teleological purpose of rivers, lakes and the creatures inhabiting them is to process all the waste being produced by the cities. The amount that water absorbs, the amount that invertebrates consume is determined by how much human waste needs to be consumed.

You must remember: D&D has four elements; our universe has over 100. Another thing to consider: over-emission of solid waste into a river should cause a reduction in local temperatures. Earth has the properties of coldness and dryness; water, coldness and wetness. Thus, if any pollution were to occur, it might be changes in the local microclimate.

Also, what gives you the idea that dragons, sun giants, megapedes, etc. need water to survive?

Obviously, if all the things in the rules are true, D&D worlds counldn't have physics even remotely similar to ours. While it is a shame that the rules choose not to present a coherent physics, one can nonetheless deduce a fairly uniform physics from a careful reading.
 

DMH said:
Since cities pollute their water supply with sewage and industrial waste, where do city dwellers find safe drinking water? Shouldn't disease be more common due to this?

Just to point this out, many villages and smaller communities had the habit of dumping their sewage downstream of the town. Of course, in towns and cities, this is impossible.

Safe drinking water is available from wells and from water cisterns set up to collect rain. Places like Rome and many desert cities would build aquaducts or underground canals to bring in their water from far away (the underground supply was hence safe from seige and such).

And if you are looking for a response to the disease problem, look to the Paladins and Clerics. Paladins of course have the Remove Disease ability. As zero-level spells, Clerics had Create Water and Purify Food & Drink. At higher levels they of course have a much larger supply of spells. This fact can help offset those diseases and problems. Of course, these depend on how magical a gaming world is.

Another idea is the use of magical monster to consume such wastes. There are several monsters out there that live off waste. Perhaps larger towns have captured such beasts and use them to consume their waste.

DMH said:
Deserts have an overabundance of giants (sand, sun), dragons (blue, brass, copper, brown, and yellow), and other huge animals (megapedes, nightmare beasts, ravagers, etc.). Where do they find their water supply?

What about fire, cloud and non-aquatic storm giants?

Many creates in the desert don't drink. Some collect moisture from the dew that forms on their body at night. Others stricky get their liquid from the creatures they kill.

DMH said:
What about Underdark communities? They can be huge and yet it doesn't seem like there are enough rivers and lakes to support all of them. And aren't the lakes and seas contaminated with minerals?

These races could, over the years, have a natural tolerance of many of those minerals and foreign objects that would sicken you or I. Otherwise, I don't see why a large city on the surface can have a variety of wells and such to support them while Underdark cities can't have the same. Thats why these places are so rare - there has to be a source of water for any type of Underdark community to form. Similarly, perhaps they just open some type of portal to the Plane of Water with a variety of wards to keep those pesky creatures and elementals out. A Decantur of Endless Water only costs 9,000gp to buy or 9th level to create.
 

The Amazing Dingo said:
Just to point this out, many villages and smaller communities had the habit of dumping their sewage downstream of the town. Of course, in towns and cities, this is impossible.

Safe drinking water is available from wells and from water cisterns set up to collect rain. Places like Rome and many desert cities would build aquaducts or underground canals to bring in their water from far away (the underground supply was hence safe from seige and such).

And if you are looking for a response to the disease problem, look to the Paladins and Clerics. Paladins of course have the Remove Disease ability. As zero-level spells, Clerics had Create Water and Purify Food & Drink. At higher levels they of course have a much larger supply of spells. This fact can help offset those diseases and problems. Of course, these depend on how magical a gaming world is.

Another idea is the use of magical monster to consume such wastes. There are several monsters out there that live off waste. Perhaps larger towns have captured such beasts and use them to consume their waste.

Or perhaps the creatures just shifted in there, or evolved to fit a niche. Most worlds are flooded with Ancient Civilisations Dead These Many Centuries, and so the city has probably been around a lot longer than our world (although I hasten to point out that irrigation and aquaportation have been around on a massive scale for thousands of years, as mentioned in the aqueducts above). The city, therefore, becomes a valid ecological location for creatures to evolve into and inhabit. Kinda like grass - people might import it, but it'll spring up on its own anyway, perhaps not as pretty as self-applied grass, perhaps with some nasty stuff growing in its midst, but it'll spring up anyway. (That's a metaphor that works on many levels.)

Many creates in the desert don't drink. Some collect moisture from the dew that forms on their body at night. Others stricky get their liquid from the creatures they kill.

These races could, over the years, have a natural tolerance of many of those minerals and foreign objects that would sicken you or I. Otherwise, I don't see why a large city on the surface can have a variety of wells and such to support them while Underdark cities can't have the same. Thats why these places are so rare - there has to be a source of water for any type of Underdark community to form. Similarly, perhaps they just open some type of portal to the Plane of Water with a variety of wards to keep those pesky creatures and elementals out. A Decantur of Endless Water only costs 9,000gp to buy or 9th level to create.

Also consider the possibility of elemental blood; there are a few rock monsters out there, and things that live in mineral-high environments are likely evolved populations with resistance to the more subtle threats of the region.

Dragons, of course, can eat anything and find it nourishing, it seems; the draconis fundamentum, or whatever their specialised breath/digestion organ may be, is capable of breaking down just about anything short of artifact-level adamantite, so they can survive just eating sand for hundreds of years. Their biology, of course, is probably pretty strange because of this; I suspect there might be some fission and fusion involved, so they make their own water. They don't like it, of course, and would much rather eat something that can scream. And the same probably goes for a great number of other things; why should dragons be the only creatures with such an efficient digestive system? The remorhaz, for example, is clearly doing something it shouldn't.

There are insects and the like that can enter suspended animation states in the real world. It's possible that a more sophisticated lifeform could have the ability to go dormant and wake up when it smells prey nearby.



Back on the original question: Aqueducts, wells, and intelligent waste venting systems ("pour it in downstream, lads"). Plus a healthy dose of "eh, water's supposed to be brown, and I hear the plague's back in town" - Europeans are theorised to have developed excellent immune systems because of questionable living habits (mostly related to farm animals, I hear, but this could be another factor). Heck, 150 years ago any major metropolitan area (New York, London, Paris) could be counted on to stink of horse manure lying about in the streets, because horses were the only form of transport and the animals didn't use indoor plumbing... so my answer to "Where do cities find safe drinking water?" is "Partially they got it from sources other than the river, partially they didn't care".
 

Things about clean water (and yes, I know I'm repeating some stuff):

1) Remember that Tokyo and Rome both hit 1 million inahbitants well before the industrial age. They used aqueducts, riverwater, wells and cisterns to get clean water.

2) Clean water isn't neccessarily clean. There are major cities I go to in Mexico, Europe and South America where you still can't drink the tapwater if you're not a local. Locals don't have a problem because their immune/digestive systems evolved & adapted to those conditions- visitors risk a vistit from Montezuma...

3) Don't underestimate the amount of drinking of alcoholic beverages. For a long time, water was considered to be less healthy than ales, beers, liquors and wines because you couldn't get sick by drinking them. The water in them is either boiled or purified by the alcohol content. Not that everyone was a drunk- increased tolerances due to constant exposure plus the watering down of these beverages allowed for relative sobriety. The wine in a typical adventurer's wineskin wouldn't be strong enough to get him drunk, but the alcohol content would minimize bacterial/fungal blooms.

4) As for beasties in the desert- Desert creatures in the real world either get their neccessary water intake by drinking condensation, consuming plants/animals, or by going into hibernation for long periods of time, like frogs, fish and even shrimp. When the desert gets rain, they stir, emerge, eat, mate and then go back into hibernation. Some creatures, like the Camel, store water in body fat, released slowly as the fat is broken down. Creatures with elemental fire ancestry might require little or no water to survive.

5) Subterranean creatures, having evolved into those niches, DO have a higher tolerance for minerals, etc. This goes doubly for creatures with elemental earth origins.

6) Magic can account for a lot of the above as well. Water production & detection can be done magically, and could conceivablyl increase the adaptation of a race to an environment. A well enchanted with a permanent "Purify Water" or an irrigation system that passes all of its water through a gate constructed with a Unicorn's Horn (how& why is up to you) would both provide lots of clean water. It could also be the basis of a guild of alchemists (the Cisternist Guild), or the duty of the city's preferred priesthoods.
 


For the Underdark, there are entire seas down in the Underdark. Most 'living' cave systems are pretty wet if I remember correctly, so there should be a fair amount of water collecting in low places. I'm sure they also pipe it in from elsewhere, or simply have it magically created. Three or four Decanters of Endless Water would probably do the trick for a large city's drinking water. The Underdark creatures are probably used to the mineral content. Maybe that's how creatures like Gorgons replenish their scales and such?

Most of the pollution from a midevil city is going to be from the human waste; not too much industrial waste unless you're near a mine or tannery; from what I remember, those are the two biggest waste producers. Most of the waste from farm animals and such is taken care of by the natural processes of breakdown; the systen isn't overloaded like it is most places today. Probably that holds true even for larger cities, though rainfall and aquaducts are going to be main suppliers of water.
 

Thank you for the responces. They have brought up some interesting problems for explorers and travellers. The pollution rules in Into the Blue now have more use; now they can be used to determine the value of water to outsiders.

The only thing I have issue with (and that being minor anyways) is the use of clerics and paladins as curing machines. There should not be enough to stop a epidemic in a major city and even then they will look after their own flock before they treat others.

I wonder why they created so many mega monsters for deserts when mountains make more sense (as much space, better lairs, more food if they forage beyond).
 

DMH said:
I wonder why they created so many mega monsters for deserts when mountains make more sense (as much space, better lairs, more food if they forage beyond).

You do get Mountain s in desert regions and may creatures will live there because of the coolness and shade. So perhaps all your desert mega-fauna IS mountain dwelling and simply count the desert lowlands as part of their range

As to water supplies - if the Underdark is 70% water (huge underground lakes and multilevel river systems) then the surface cities have a huge supply of well water available by digging down into it. Problem solved for both populations (only problem is how to keep the underdark monsters from crawling up the pipes! - I suppose thats what Adventurers are for)
 


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