Questions: Overchannel, Skirmish

[Herzog]

Two questions came up during our games last week that I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer on.

One: Can you use Temporary Hitpoints to 'power' your Psionic Overchanneling?
I couldn't find anything against it, but it seems to cheapen the penalty you take for being able to increase your powers beyond your normal limits.

Two: Do you get Skirmish damage and AC bonuses when moving by riding a horse?
The rules don't seem to specify what method of movement you use, only referring to moving (away from your original position when including the errata) but I can't seem to find anything about movement not actually performed by yourself.

And what about movement by standing on a boat? Or a flying carpet?
This requires no action on your part whatsoever. Does it still give you Skirmish bonuses?

 

[Bungus]

I believe skirmish damage applies only when you move on your own, but I cannot recall where I saw that - maybe the FAQ?

 

[Jhaelen]

Yep, skirmish has been errataed.

Regarding the psionic overchannel:
Interesting. This might actually be an oversight. Similar abilities are typically worded differently, saying something to the effect of 'this damage cannot be reduced in any way'. I guess, I'd allow it to work and carefully observe if it turns out to make it overpowered or not.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Two questions came up during our games last week that I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer on.

One: Can you use Temporary Hitpoints to 'power' your Psionic Overchanneling?
I couldn't find anything against it, but it seems to cheapen the penalty you take for being able to increase your powers beyond your normal limits.

Two: Do you get Skirmish damage and AC bonuses when moving by riding a horse?
The rules don't seem to specify what method of movement you use, only referring to moving (away from your original position when including the errata) but I can't seem to find anything about movement not actually performed by yourself.

And what about movement by standing on a boat? Or a flying carpet?
This requires no action on your part whatsoever. Does it still give you Skirmish bonuses?

Unfortunately, Skirmish was errata'd to not include mounted (so much for a class to represent Mongol warriors). Then again, one of the dragon mags (and it's on crystalkeep) has a vraiant that allows it while mounted but not on foot. So for a dedicated mounted PC, it's not a big deal. On a boat I would definitely say no to skirmish, except possibly against things not on the boat. If the target is also on the boat, he's moving the same direction and distance as you, and simultaneously, so I'd just rule that the designers meant "relative motion." Flying carpet is trickier. Without errata, it's probably ok. With errata, it's not, and probably there is nothing you can do to actually make it work, which is lame IMO. Even against things not on a boat, though, I'd lean towards no, jsut because of the awkwardness and the fact ship movement is typically done at a set time each round, while skirmish depends upon moving on your turn.

Overchannel cheese sounds like it'd work, and I don't see how it would get that bad. How are they getting the temp hp? The best method would be Minor Shapechange, but that's only available to a high level wiz/psion or sorc/wilder, since you need a polymorph spell to power it. Using Vigor power costs PP and possiblly an action to use in combat. Stone Power would be an interestintg method for a Psychic Warrior using melee powers (take up to -5 to hit, and get 2x that penalty as temp hp for one round), but...is anyone actually afraid of Psywars breaking overchannel? Seems no less abusive than the trick Crusaders can do with their delayed damage pool to not only effectively have "DR 10" one the first attack they suffer per round, but to ALSO gain Furious Counterstrike benefits (class feature, do +1 attack/dage per 5 points of damage suffered, limited in bonus by class level) while doing so. And that "trick" was written into the Tome of Battle mechanics on purpose.

Unless someone has a more broken example, I don't see why it's a big deal.

 

[Herzog]

Skirmish:re-checked the errata, and you're right. it's right in there. missed it the first time I checked (when I was only reading the modification using 'away from')

Overchannel: he's using Vigor as one of his primary buff spells, then using overchannel to call forth a very powerfull astral construct. (he's a shaper)

The main problem we (the rest of the players) have is that the astral constructs he summons seem to rival the Warforged Fighter in the party. And that's not really a push-over character.

Last session, the psion used overchannel in combination with his THP from Vigor to get an even more powerful astral construct, without (in my opinion) paying the cost that should include.

On the other hand, one potion of healing or a cure from the cleric would have had the same effect.... It just seemed cheesy, that's all.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Skirmish:re-checked the errata, and you're right. it's right in there. missed it the first time I checked (when I was only reading the modification using 'away from')

Overchannel: he's using Vigor as one of his primary buff spells, then using overchannel to call forth a very powerfull astral construct. (he's a shaper)

The main problem we (the rest of the players) have is that the astral constructs he summons seem to rival the Warforged Fighter in the party. And that's not really a push-over character.

Last session, the psion used overchannel in combination with his THP from Vigor to get an even more powerful astral construct, without (in my opinion) paying the cost that should include.

On the other hand, one potion of healing or a cure from the cleric would have had the same effect.... It just seemed cheesy, that's all.

I think Vigor is a bit overpowered, as it gives you 5 temp hit points/level. So, at higher levels, you can manifest Vigor and get 50 hit points at level 10 and 100 hit points at level 20. Are there any SRD spells that give nearly that many temp hit points? How about from the Spell Compendium? That said, Vigor can be dispelled, and summoning a construct is a 1 round manifestation that can be disrupted.

But, also, the astral construct will soon fall behind the warforged fighter as the fighter picks up more feats, get more powerful magic weapons & items, etc. I think astral constructs max out around CR:10. Maybe with some special feats & abilities, he can get it up to CR:11 or 12, but that's still not going to match up to a level 18 fighter.

 

[Runestar]

100 temp hp seems fair for the amount of power points you need to sink into it.

I know PHB2 has that 9th lv spell which turns you into a dragon, granting 150temp hp in the process (granted, you are "stuck" in the form of a dragon).

 

[NewJeffCT]

100 temp hp seems fair for the amount of power points you need to sink into it.

I know PHB2 has that 9th lv spell which turns you into a dragon, granting 150temp hp in the process (granted, you are "stuck" in the form of a dragon).

True, but you also lose the dragon's spellcasting ability - so, you are a CR:18 dragon with no dragon spells. Granted, it's better than shapechange into a dragon, as the dragon form is then limited to your level in HD, which would be smaller & weaker than a CR:18 mature adult dragon (which has 25 HD)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, Vigor's a decent power, but I don't think it's broken. Between following manifestations overlapping rather than stacking and the limited duration, it has a pretty severe cost for the benefit, and it can be hard to judge how much you should spend on it. Frequently it's also required ot use in combat, so there's the action cost. As the OP said, a wand of cure light or similar can effectively make up for the damage anyway, and would be much easier/simpler to do. I don't think it's that broken, and...I really am surprised he's outsripping the Fighter with constructs. What feats did the fighter take?!

 

[Runestar]

A wand of vigor can be more efficient, provided you survive the battle (which isn't always a given). A single heal spell cures more hp, but you "waste" a standard action casting it during battle, which could be used to do some other action like attacking instead (that and you need to be adjacent to the PC).

Vigor has the benefit of being "pre-emptive healing". It's duration of 1min/lv means that you should be able to manifest it reliably prior to any battle and after that, it is basically healing which does not require any actions. It also helps you survive any attacks which would otherwise deal more damage than you have hp. That is essentially the tradeoff for the smaller and more expensive rate of "healing".

From experience, I noticed that yes, an astral construct can be situationally superior to a fighter. Especially if you augment it to large or even huge, this combined with its immense (relative to a fighter at any rate) strength tends to make it better at str-based manoeuvres such as tripping, grappling or bull-rushing. It also takes up more space and has a greater reach, making it better at clogging up chokepoints and controlling the battlefield.

And being disposable (in that they disappear at the end of the power's duration), you don't have to care how much damage they take (if anything, you want them to soak up as much damage as they can, since every point they take is that much damage another PC is not suffering, which in turn cuts down on the amount of resources that need to be expended on healing).

One interesting point to note is that they also have dr/magic, which can be surprisingly tricky for a monster to overcome. Take for instance a huge construct (144hp, dr15/magic). Assuming a marilith did not prebuff with magic weapon on all her longswords (or if they were dispelled), this means that on average, her off-hand attacks are not dealing any damage at all!

So against the right foes, they can soak up much more punishment than a fighter (with dr making up for a crappy AC), and as noted earlier, you don't have to bother undoing all that damage.

Definitely a steal for the amount of PP invested.