Quick ASOIAF A Clash of Kings question (SPOILER)

[Lord Pendragon]

In the same way that I dislike some of the characters for what isn't there, you're assigning material to them that isn't present, IMO.

Here we fundamentally disagree, then. The textual evidence is absolutely there, as I see it. When away from his father, Tyrion is commanding, calculating, and dreadfully devious. He plays his own sister as well as anyone. But he never does that with his father. He never even considers plotting against Tywin, which IMO is a clear indication that he's falling into a role. The same Tyrion that used Cercei's children against her would at least have considered pitting himself against Tywin (even if he eventually rejected the notion on the grounds that Tywin has a far greater political position). But he doesn't. He falls into the role of a petulant child, making snide comments at his father instead of treating him as he would a valuable but potentially trecherous ally.

None of that is HIS fault though. His "failures" are not his own, but his fathers.

I disagree. Theon is responsible for himself. Claiming that Theon's mistakes are all his father's fault is silly, IMO. We could all make the same assertion, and then nobody would be responsible for anything. It'd always be our parent's fault, or society, or circumstance. No. Theon is responsible for himself. In fact, I'd say that's one of the defining flaws of the character, that Theon cannot see that. He's usually more concerned about what people owe him, about his "due," about the respect he deserves, rather than making himself a man worthy of respect.

I don't expect him to say everything I'm thinking, but I expect it to be addressed. If he can't face up to his father, that's acceptable but should be mentioned in some fashion.

We're given several examples of confrontations between him and his father. We can see that he can't face up to him. I don't understand why you claim this isn't addressed.

While all of that is possible, it's not in the actual material.

It most certainly is in the material. Theon thinks of Ned often, and his thoughts are very informative. Likewise his attitudes towards women, and Asha in particular. It's all there in the text.

Perhaps it's a part of Martin's style of writing that I dislike. We're seeing each chapter from a characters perspective, but without truely knowing the motivations for the character in most cases.

Again, I disagree. The PoV style allows us to know the motivations of the characters far better than nearly any other style would allow, save perhaps third-person omniscient.

I don't mind er.. NPC's from having hidden motives and such, but for the PC's to just act in a manner without any real depth (to my eyes) it turns the material tedious for me.

*shrug* I can see now that we are simply reading the books in completely different ways. My college degree was in english literature, so I've spent a lot of time analyzing text. To me, Martin's books are very well-written, and present powerful characterizations of all the PoV characters. We know their motivations. We know their priorities and goals. We know their pains and weaknesses.

If it's any consolation, Dany's chapters also became so tedious I could barely stand them.
My problem isn't just Catelyn, it just seems that ever chapter from her POV has something Stupid. (with a capital S!) It's like Martin made a conscious effort to put all the stupid stuff in her chapters, so it didn't bring down the other characters.

My problem with Dany is her growing arrogance. I liked her in A Game of Thrones, but by the time A Storm of Swords comes around, she's bought into all her brother's crazy-talk about the "blood of the dragon" and what-not. I dislike the kind of person Dany is becoming, though I don't particularly dislike her chapters. There are some interesting things happening around her.

Regarding your comment about Cat, it's impossible for me to respond to such a vague statement. What kind of "Stupid with a capital S!" stuff are we talking about here? I never found Cat stupid. She was a mother worrying about her children, a wife worried about her husband, and she was fairly powerless most of the time. I dislike being powerless and worrying a lot, so naturally Cat's chapters weren't my favorites. I didn't dislike Cat because of it, though. I imagine my own mother might feel similarly in the same situation.

The other thing that irked me was the constant sexual references. Someone was always having sex, or being raped, or talking about one or the other in almost every chapter in Book 2 & 3. But that's just my tastes showing, so it's not a major thing.

Well, sex is a bit part of life. I prefer it be present rather than conspicuously absent. While some of the love scenes might have been unnecessary (Dany and Irri in particular. I feel Tyrion's love scenes with Shae tell us a lot about Tyrion) I don't really hate GRRM for including them.

I enjoyed the books, I didn't feel like throwing Book3 when I was done with it, but by the end, the tedious nature of it left me "done". I have no further interest in the setting, let alone waiting for years to get them. I will read spoilers and summaries though, just for a sense of completion.

Fair enough. Different readers enjoy different kinds of story. It's the reason so many authors can make a living these days. Personally, I feel the same way you do, except about Robert Jordan instead of GRRM.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Claiming that Theon's mistakes are all his father's fault is silly, IMO. We could all make the same assertion, and then nobody would be responsible for anything. It'd always be our parent's fault, or society, or circumstance. No. Theon is responsible for himself.

ENWorlds quoting leaves something to be desired, so I'm not addressing everywhere that you and I disagree on. Suffice to say that when I read the book, I don't see what you see.
But here, there is no way Theon is responsible for his father's failure to rebel. There's no way Theon is responsible for being raised by Stark.
His attitude is all him, sure, but his father treats him like garbage because of how he was raised, which is entirely the fathers fault.

My college degree was in english literature, so I've spent a lot of time analyzing text. To me, Martin's books are very well-written, and present powerful characterizations of all the PoV characters.

I don't have your credentials, so I only read what's in the material.

Well, sex is a bit part of life. I prefer it be present rather than conspicuously absent.

It's not that sex is present in the story. It's that nearly every chapter after the first book has sex in some fashion. Even Arya's chapters generally contain sexual content in the form of rape or such.

The rest of the stuff I've explained as much as merit's I think. Obviously we disagree on the content of the books, but I really do think you've drawn on your own experiences rather than what's actually in the books, to fill in the gaps as needed.

 

[Pants]

In the same way that I dislike some of the characters for what isn't there, you're assigning material to them that isn't present, IMO. Tyrion seemed to understand his fathers ruthless nature, and knew there was no love lost between them, but didn't think his father would deceive him? Just doesn't work for me, YMMV.

Out of all the things that Tyrion wanted in his life was his father's respect. He feared and hated his father, but he still yearned for his respect. I think he even looked up to Tywin at times, that is, until he discovers the truth of the Tysha incident

All exactly true, they "lost" him by losing the rebellion they started and he was taken as hostage. None of that is HIS fault though. His "failures" are not his own, but his fathers. I can understand if his father hates him for being the tangible example of his fathers failings, but from the material I've read, that's not why he hates him.

That just proves that Balon wasn't exactly the most 'rational' man in the Seven Kingdoms. He is, in many ways, an irrational, arrogant, fool. He ignores his son's sound advice to ally with the Starks because he believes he 'deserves more' and he doesn't want to listen to this upstart young outsider who just so happens to be his own son.

So, yes, Balon isn't rational, he makes foolish decisions, but then again, who doesn't? People are hardly flawless in the real world, how can you expect literary characters to make perfectly rational decisions all the time? Balon is far from perfect, and I'd say he has his own little 'problems' to deal with.

I don't expect him to say everything I'm thinking, but I expect it to be addressed. If he can't face up to his father, that's acceptable but should be mentioned in some fashion.

It's more of a 'show don't tell' sort of thing. It's inferred in the way he acts.

<snip Theon stuff>
While all of that is possible, it's not in the actual material. Perhaps it's a part of Martin's style of writing that I dislike. We're seeing each chapter from a characters perspective, but without truely knowing the motivations for the character in most cases. I don't mind er.. NPC's from having hidden motives and such, but for the PC's to just act in a manner without any real depth (to my eyes) it turns the material tedious for me.

Must just be personal preference then, cause I find Martin's characters almost universally fascinating and genuinely believable in their actions.

If it's any consolation, Dany's chapters also became so tedious I could barely stand them.
My problem isn't just Catelyn, it just seems that ever chapter from her POV has something Stupid. (with a capital S!) It's like Martin made a conscious effort to put all the stupid stuff in her chapters, so it didn't bring down the other characters.

You mean Catelyn acting Stupid and making foolish decisions? Well, if it's any consolation, you are hardly the only one to think so. She's far from my favorite character, but... about the only choice of hers that I truly question is her

Spoiler

kidnapping Tyrion and starting the whole war

. THAT was friggen stupid...

The other thing that irked me was the constant sexual references. Someone was always having sex, or being raped, or talking about one or the other in almost every chapter in Book 2 & 3. But that's just my tastes showing, so it's not a major thing.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't have your credentials, so I only read what's in the material.

but I really do think you've drawn on your own experiences rather than what's actually in the books, to fill in the gaps as needed.

And I think you've chosen to ignore most of the complexity of the characters. I like the way you continue to slyly suggest that I'm just making things up, while offering absolutely no counter-evidence yourself, either in reference or textual citation. I suppose I'll have to leave it at that. There's really no way to hold a discussion when the rebuttal comes down to "You're just making it all up." :\

 

[Vocenoctum]

And I think you've chosen to ignore most of the complexity of the characters. I like the way you continue to slyly suggest that I'm just making things up, while offering absolutely no counter-evidence yourself, either in reference or textual citation. I suppose I'll have to leave it at that. There's really no way to hold a discussion when the rebuttal comes down to "You're just making it all up." :\

I'm saying something isn't there, you're asking me to prove a negative, so it's true, there's not much to debate. What I am saying is that you're reading the material, and filling in the gaps. This happens in every story, but you're making judgements based on what you see "inferred in the way he acts".

As for Catelyn, it's not just her actions, Robb seems dumber in her chapters, and the world seems to be dumber in her chapters.

The fact Catelyn was Raised irks me though, true. I wanted a Ghost Wolf stalking the halls! But, the lack of said Ghost Wolf didn't turn me off the books.

 

[Pants]

What I am saying is that you're reading the material, and filling in the gaps.

There are no gaps to fill in though, it's there in the way he acts. It is in the book, all you need to do is read a little more.

If you don't like the books, fine, not everyone does. It's all personal opinion. But saying that we're filling in gaps on material that already exists in the books is... well, silly.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm saying something isn't there, you're asking me to prove a negative, so it's true, there's not much to debate. What I am saying is that you're reading the material, and filling in the gaps. This happens in every story, but you're making judgements based on what you see "inferred in the way he acts".

Making judgments based on the way a character acts (and in the case of a GRRM character, thinks,) is how you analyze a literary character. That's how you discuss a character's motivations, feelings, choices, etc.

You're claiming that my interpretation of the character is wrong. Fine. Define your interpretation of the character, and back it up with evidence from the books. Merely saying "everything you're saying is make-believe" doesn't cut it.

As for Catelyn, it's not just her actions, Robb seems dumber in her chapters, and the world seems to be dumber in her chapters.

*shrug* If you can't be any more specific than this, there's little to discuss. You got this impression from something, I'm sure. I did not. Catelyn puts her children's well-being above the well-being of the kingdom, true. And her desperate need to save those children leads her to make choices that have less than assured payoffs, simply because they're the only choices she's given with a chance of helping her kids.

Is that stupid? Perhaps, to the detached political obvserver. But to a mother desperate to snatch her children away from her family's mortal enemy? Not so much, no.

The fact Catelyn was Raised irks me though, true. I wanted a Ghost Wolf stalking the halls! But, the lack of said Ghost Wolf didn't turn me off the books.

We already have a Ghost!

As for Cat receiving the Kiss...well, we'll have to wait and see. Her return definitely put the Kiss of Fire in a new light. Before her it seemed harmless enough. The Lightning Lord was brought back several times and the only real side effect was a sense of...wear. But Cat, oh, Cat. Suddenly coming back from the dead doesn't seem so blase` anymore, does it?

 

[Vocenoctum]

You're claiming that my interpretation of the character is wrong. Fine. Define your interpretation of the character, and back it up with evidence from the books. Merely saying "everything you're saying is make-believe" doesn't cut it.*shrug*

You keep repeating the same "make believe" line, even putting it in quotes, when I never said that. You're building on material and drawing a conclusion, but the conclusion is not supported. It's just an opinion of what may have been. I find Tyrion's behavior inconsistant in places without support for why, you feel his actions are perfectly justified because of how a son would act with his father. I understand what you're saying, but don't believe it's supported. You just discard what I'm saying as without proof, because I don't quote a line to justify what ISN'T there.

If A kills B, you can justify it based on B having killed A's brother, but without justification, it really isn't automatically the "right" motive. I find that Tyrion's behavior wasn't consistant, you believe it was justifed. I think the entire Greyjoy set just felt contrived. Theon, his father, sister, heck, the entire culture seemed misplaced. I think a lot of it is based on not having a firm grasp of the world's geography/ scale in regards to the culture, but it just doesn't sync with me.

And, again, I didn't hate the books, I simply felt "finished" with them when the 3rd book ended. By that time, the plots had played themselves out too many times and I just didn't want any more. It seems everyone has their favorite's and disliked, I prefered Arya's stuff, but then she just kept moving in circles and that's part of "finished" for me.

If you can't be any more specific than this, there's little to discuss. You got this impression from something, I'm sure.

It has been quite a while since I read them, and rereading 3,000 pages to "win" a forum discussion is unlikely.

As for Cat receiving the Kiss...well, we'll have to wait and see. Her return definitely put the Kiss of Fire in a new light. Before her it seemed harmless enough. The Lightning Lord was brought back several times and the only real side effect was a sense of...wear. But Cat, oh, Cat. Suddenly coming back from the dead doesn't seem so blase` anymore, does it?

Eh, it sort of does feel that way, because she was, er... meaningless, I guess, in the grand "faith" way of things. Perhaps it'll prove important in the future books, maybe they fill out the pantheon or something, could work. Right now, it's just "eh".

 

[The_lurkeR]

I'm afraid I have to chime in on the side of LP here.

The characters of the novels are rich complex characters like a real people.

Yes Tyrion is witty and sly, but not around his father. That is not a fault of the author, that simply IS Tyrions character. This is not an unusual flaw, and Pendragon is not filling in any "gaps" in the narrative on his own. Tyrions chapters are full of evidence to support that although he may despise and be intimidated by his father, he also constantly tries to appease and prove himself to be worthy of his fathers respect.

There are numerous instances of this... most obviously so when he first leads the Lannister Van into battle, and when he goes to Kings Landing to become the Hand.