Quick DR Question and Regarding Golems...

[Apok]

Okay, I don't have access to my books at the moment and I need a quick question answered.

Regarding DR, will a +1 or better magical weapon penetrate DR x/silver or x/cold iron or some such? I was just wondering, since it doesn't make too much sense to me that a creature like a Lycanthrope or Fey, who according to legend have only one weakness (vulnerability to silver or cold forged iron) can be brought low by somebody hacking away w/ a basic +1 sword.

As another attatched question, this comes from a discussion I had with a fellow DM a while back. Does a Golem's immunity to spells also make it immune to the extra Energy damage applied from weapons with the Flaming, Frost, Shock, etc. enchantment on it?

 

[kreynolds]

Regarding DR, will a +1 or better magical weapon penetrate DR x/silver or x/cold iron or some such?

Yes.

 

[ruleslawyer]

To answer the second question: DR generally does not protect against energy damage such as that inflicted by a flaming, shocking, etc. weapon. However, golems' magic immunity special quality generally will protect them against damage from flaming, shocking, etc. weapons, because such damage is a magical effect.

 

[kreynolds]

However, golems' magic immunity special quality generally will protect them against damage from flaming, shocking, etc. weapons, because such damage is a magical effect.

But a golem's magic immunity is treated as unbeatable SR, and the damage inflicted by flaming, flaming burst, etc weapons are not subject to SR. The Maze spell also isn't subject to SR, but golems with magic immunity are still vulnerable to it.

 

[Taren Seeker]

But a golem's magic immunity is treated as unbeatable SR, and the damage inflicted by flaming, flaming burst, etc weapons are not subject to SR. The Maze spell also isn't subject to SR, but golems with magic immunity are still vulnerable to it.

I have to disagree with you on the unbeatable SR point. Golems are stated to be flat out immune to spells, spell-likes and supernatural effects except for certain exceptions. Golems are immune to Maze. I'd also say that a Golem could walk through a Wall of Force, but not stone or iron.

However, my question is whether flaming is considered a supernatural effect. I'd say no, unless someone has a cite?

 

[kreynolds]

I have to disagree with you on the unbeatable SR point. Golems are stated to be flat out immune to spells, spell-likes and supernatural effects except for certain exceptions. Golems are immune to Maze. I'd also say that a Golem could walk through a Wall of Force, but not stone or iron.

Actually, I've been treating it as unbeatable SR ever since I saw this Sage Reply...

Hello there, we were having a discussion on the boards about how the various spell immunities work and we are confused about exactly how a Golem's spell immunity does work.

Think of it as unbeatable SR.

It is clear from the spell that the spell is treated as infinite/unbeatable SR against the warded spells, but the golem description seems to indicate that it might be different.

No, that's right.

So, is a golem's spell immunity unbeatable SR, or is it just immune to all spells?
If the former, can I assume that is it affected by a Maze spell?

Yup (Maze is SR: No; you build a maze around the golem).

What about the fire from a wall of fire?

Wall of Fire is SR: Yes, so the golem is immune. Note fire has special effects on some golems

If the latter, what about things like Greater Magic Weapon, Rock to Mud cast under them, etc?

If the SR entry is "no" the golem does not ignore the spell's effects.

The text on the Anti-magic field seems to indicate that some spells that aren't listed under their description can affect them, but we're not sure what.

See previous answers (and your own excellent judgement).

...which explained it quite well. If the a spell doesn't directly effect you, immunity wouldn't help anyways. It's like Wall of Iron. The golem isn't immune to the spell because the spell doesn't actually do anything to it, which is also why SR doesn't apply. YMMV.

However, my question is whether flaming is considered a supernatural effect.

Do you mean as opposed to extraordinary?

 

[Taren Seeker]

The Sage reply is interesting...and ultimately I disagree with it in some key points. Maze actually removes you to a pocket plane, which means that the magic directly affects you. By this logic something like Solid Fog would affect the Golem, which I can't see as the magic immunity ability is pretty clearly written.

I agree with your thinking on Wall of Iron, but I think for different reasons.

The flaming question is tricky. I don't think that everything in 3e can be fit into Su, Sp and Ex. The sword generating the flame would be magical and would be suppressed in an AMF, but is the flame itself magical? I'm not sure. I do know that the Sp, Su and Ex tags apply to creatures as opposed to objects, and since unintelligent magic items don't fit into these definitions I would allow it to affect a Golem. (Provided they do not have energy resistance as well)

It seems to work well within the SR, DR, ER framework.

Besides, the above from the Sage would mean that SR affects a holy or flaming weapon. I don't see that as consistent.

 

[kreynolds]

I agree with your thinking on Wall of Iron, but I think for different reasons.

Fair enough.

The flaming question is tricky. I don't think that everything in 3e can be fit into Su, Sp and Ex. The sword generating the flame would be magical and would be suppressed in an AMF, but is the flame itself magical? I'm not sure. I do know that the Sp, Su and Ex tags apply to creatures as opposed to objects, and since unintelligent magic items don't fit into these definitions I would allow it to affect a Golem. (Provided they do not have energy resistance as well)

It seems to work well within the SR, DR, ER framework.

Well, I was more curious as what the importance was of whether or not the flames from a flaming weapon were surpernatural. Techinically, torches and flaming weapons are both just energy.

This also somewhat backs up the Sage's view of a Golem's magic immunity being treated as unbeateable SR. By the way, it looks like he referrenced the Spell Immunity spell from the DMG, which grants unbeatable SR, but only to spells that SR applies.

Besides, the above from the Sage would mean that SR affects a holy or flaming weapon. I don't see that as consistent.

How so? I think you might have lost me, or I lost you. Either way...help?

 

[Hejdun]

I have to disagree with you on the unbeatable SR point. Golems are stated to be flat out immune to spells, spell-likes and supernatural effects except for certain exceptions. Golems are immune to Maze. I'd also say that a Golem could walk through a Wall of Force, but not stone or iron.

But then, how do you decide what the Golem is affected by? Infinite SR is about the easiest to adjucate what Golems are affected by.

Otherwise, you have to decide what happens when a Golem is buried by a Move Earth spell. Or a Wall of Iron is toppled onto them. Or if they can see Invisible creatures. Or whether or not they can cross bridges made from Fabricate. Or if a magically propelled arrow would still harm it. Or if a telekenesis driven boulder can hurt a Golem when it drops on him.

There are hundreds of examples just like those, where the golem *should* be affected, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I generally agree with you that Magic Immunity should be treated as unbeatable SR when applied to spells, kreynolds, as that treatment resolves certain questions as to what "affects" the golem. However, note that the magic immunity special quality also protects the golem against "supernatural effects." Supernatural abilities specifically do not allow SR; does this mean we should ignore all of the text in the MM stating that magic immunity makes a golem immune to "supernatural effects"?

My ruling on magic immunity is simple but extremely ad hoc. Quite simply, it is treated as unbeatable SR vs. all spells, and total immunity to all supernatural abilities that directly affect the golem's form, substance, or animation in any way, as well as all supernatural effects that normally allow a saving throw.