Quick Question: Attacks of Op in the Suprise Round

[Venator]

Yup, more specifically:

Combat Reflexes allow making an AoO while flat-footed.

Right, but does it allow you to make AoO's when you can not act?


I see two things being said under the "Unaware Combatants" heading...

1) Unaware characters can not act.
2) Because they have yet to act in combat, they are flat footed.

They are independant statements. A character could make an AoO while flat footed if he had Combat Reflexes, but in the case of a Suprise round (that he does not partake in) he can't because he doesn't get to act, aka he can not take any action.

If the character has not even rolled a die for initiative (not in initiative order), how can he start attacking things?

Combat Reflexes helps you out in the first round of combat before you take your action and any other time you might be flat footed in combat. The suprise round is not the first round of combat and suprised characters are not considered to be in combat due to not having rolled a die for initiative.

 

[underfoot]

I'm kind of curious what kind of situations would come up that an AoO is provoked during a suprise round (limited to a standard action). If you're not invisiible or hidden, you are most likely too far away from anyone to provoke an AoO with a standard action. If you're hidden or invisible and getting a jump on the party, you're not going to do something that provokes like cast a spell or run through the party as your standard action.

If you suprise someone who is standing next to you and you do someting to provoke.... maybe you deserve a good whallop?

As for the rules, I would read it as you cannot make an AoO if you are suprised during the surprised round, and then on the first normal round you may make AoO before your initative.
If you are not suprised, and you are still considered flat-footed, then you would be able to make AoO as long as you threaten.

 

[Venator]

As for the rules, I would read it as you cannot make an AoO if you are suprised during the surprised round, and then on the first normal round you may make AoO before your initative.
If you are not suprised, and you are still considered flat-footed, then you would be able to make AoO as long as you threaten.

That is how i read it as well.

As far as when it would come up, in most cases it wouldnt due to most characters not having reach weapons. The PC in question is a Spiked Cheese wielder and has a 10 foot reach. He wanted to make his 5 AoO's in an attempt to trip several baddies that moved towards the group in the surprise round.

 

[prospero63]

Can a character with the Combat Reflexes feat make AoO's during the suprise round if he/she is infact suprised and has yet to act?

Under Suprise Round in the Player's Handbook it says:




It seems pretty clear to me that suprised characters can not act at all in the suprise round. They are flat footed because they have yet to act and no other reason. A player of mine thought otherwise and wanted to make AoO's to trip enemies with his spiked chain during the suprise round despite being suprised. Opinions?

I would have ruled the same. The flat footed effect of the surprise round is the result of being unaware. Creatures that are unaware (which are also flat footed) can't act. Your player is only correct in that he is only dealing with part of the situation (flat footed) while ignoring the unaware aspect.

 

[prospero63]

That says to me that Combat Reflexes would indeed allow AoO in the surprise round, as anyone unaware is flat-footed.

Personally, I'd house-rule that in a surprise round, anyone unaware of the attack cannot act in the surprise round, Combat Reflexes or not.
Just my view. Feel free to disagree.

That is because you are confusing cause and causation. The proper chain of logic is this:

Surprise round
|
\ /
Flat footed - I can do an AoO while flatfooted
|
\ /
Unaware - I can't act while unaware

The unaware supersedes the flat footed effect, which is illustrated by flat footed being an effect of being unaware, not the other way around.

 

[prospero63]

Right, but does it allow you to make AoO's when you can not act?


I see two things being said under the "Unaware Combatants" heading...

1) Unaware characters can not act.
2) Because they have yet to act in combat, they are flat footed.

They are independant statements. A character could make an AoO while flat footed if he had Combat Reflexes, but in the case of a Suprise round (that he does not partake in) he can't because he doesn't get to act, aka he can not take any action.

If the character has not even rolled a die for initiative (not in initiative order), how can he start attacking things?

Combat Reflexes helps you out in the first round of combat before you take your action and any other time you might be flat footed in combat. The suprise round is not the first round of combat and suprised characters are not considered to be in combat due to not having rolled a die for initiative.

QFT.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Venator, that is a really interesting point. I have never noticed the distinction of the surprise round before, but I think you may be right. It appears you cannot make an AoO, or even an immediate action, in the surprise round if you are unaware.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

That says to me that Combat Reflexes would indeed allow AoO in the surprise round, as anyone unaware is flat-footed.

Personally, I'd house-rule that in a surprise round, anyone unaware of the attack cannot act in the surprise round, Combat Reflexes or not.
Just my view. Feel free to disagree.

Disagree!

Maybe this should be a poll? I love it when you get one side with 80+% of the vote

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm kind of curious what kind of situations would come up that an AoO is provoked during a suprise round (limited to a standard action). If you're not invisiible or hidden, you are most likely too far away from anyone to provoke an AoO with a standard action. If you're hidden or invisible and getting a jump on the party, you're not going to do something that provokes like cast a spell or run through the party as your standard action.

If you suprise someone who is standing next to you and you do someting to provoke.... maybe you deserve a good whallop?

As for the rules, I would read it as you cannot make an AoO if you are suprised during the surprised round, and then on the first normal round you may make AoO before your initative.
If you are not suprised, and you are still considered flat-footed, then you would be able to make AoO as long as you threaten.

Note, on a surprise round, you can use the partial charge action. That would be the most likely action to draw an aoo in a surprise round, I would think.

EDIT: And I always considered the surprise round to be grouped with the first round (though not for spell durations and such). I mean, for example, the Rapid Assualt feat from ToB. It lets you deal +1d6 damage each attack on the first round of combat. I allow that to function in the surprise round, as that seems to go with the intent of the feat. Makes it a nasty addition to NPC's with pounce, due to the aforementioned partial charge! Would the people not clumping the surprise round together with the first full round not allow such a feat to function the surprise round, yet then work later on in the actual first round? It just seems so odd...

 

[Hussar]

Flat footed is a status condition.

Unaware is not. Unaware has no real mechanical meaning in D&D. It just means that you don't know that something is there. But, unless there is some reason that you cannot see the opponent (invisible for example), once the surpriser breaks cover, he's automatically seen.

Can I see something and still be considered unaware? I cannot act because it's the surprise round, that's fair enough and to gain surprise, I have to be unaware of the opponent. But, once he's initiated his surprise round, I'm flat footed (thus cannot act), but, I'm hardly unaware because I can see the opponent.