Quick Question: Attacks of Op in the Suprise Round

[argo]

That is because you are confusing cause and causation. The proper chain of logic is this:

Surprise round
|
\ /
Flat footed - I can do an AoO while flatfooted
|
\ /
Unaware - I can't act while unaware

The unaware supersedes the flat footed effect, which is illustrated by flat footed being an effect of being unaware, not the other way around.

How about an alternative "proper chain of logic"

Surprise round
|
\ /
Unaware - I don't get to act in the surprise round
|
\ /
Flat footed - I am flat footed becuase I haven't acted yet. Luckily I have the Combat Reflexes feat!


If they bought the feat they should get the benefit of the feat. I would let them make the AoO.

 

[Korak]

For all those saying that you cannot take an AOO during the surprise round with Combat Reflexes because you are unable to act, consider that an AOO is not, in fact, an action. It's not a standard, full round, partial, swift, free, or immediate action... it's just something that a character can do under certain circumstances defined in the rules, with a certain frequency (normally, once per round, only when threatening an enemy who provokes, and simultaneously not flat-footed). Actions are defined game terms. It seems reasonable to me that "unable to act" most literally means, "unable to take actions" since that is the game term that most closely matches the terminology used. AOOs are very well fleshed out in the rules, and are most certainly not actions... so, if all the conditions for using an AOO are met, I see no reason why one could not be taken.

Venator earlier broke surprise down as follows:

1) Unaware characters can not act.
2) Because they have yet to act in combat, they are flat footed.

I would break it down a bit differently.

1. Surprised characters have no initiative count (because they are not entitled to roll yet)
2. Surprised characters may not take actions (really a side effect of not having an initiative count, although it is specifically stated)
3. Surprised characters are flat-footed (really a side effect of not having acted yet, although it is specifically stated)

In addressing those restrictions, I would say...

1. Nothing in the rules for AoOs requires a character to have an initiative count to take an AOO.
2. AOOs are not actions.

So, for most characters, only #3 is a problem. However,

3. Combat Reflexes allows a character to make AOOs while flat-footed

I do believe it was the intent of the writers for Combat Relflexes to enable AOOs during a surprise round. I also believe it is of reasonable power level for the feat. I further believe that the specific way in which the relevant rules are written support this position.

That said, I can see that it is not written with perfect clarity. The above is just my best effort at interpretation of what was written and intended in the PHB. If an errata release or faq answer were to say that AOOs could not be taken, even with Combat Reflexes, then I would go along with it.

 

[Goolpsy]

As stated above, you aren't in combat before you have rolled for Initiative... in the suprise round, the "victim" of our scenario, haven't done that, hence his "combat-related" feat does not come into play.

On a different Note, the "flat-footed" from a suprise round is used to illustrate how one are affected from such a suprise... (Instead of making a new condition to such a small thing, when it will ahve everything in common with being flat-footed)

To Argo: You cant alter the chain of logic... suprise round doesn't state: you are flat-footed, hence you are unaware..
It states that the "victim" is UNAWARE... hence, as a sideeffect he aquires the flat-footed condition.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actions are defined game terms. It seems reasonable to me that "unable to act" most literally means, "unable to take actions" since that is the game term that most closely matches the terminology used. AOOs are very well fleshed out in the rules, and are most certainly not actions... so, if all the conditions for using an AOO are met, I see no reason why one could not be taken.

Out of curiosity, would you also permit someone to make an AoO if they were:
Dazed?
Cowering?
Disabled? Would he take a point of damage for doing so?
Panicked, assuming not cornered?
Stunned, assuming Improved Unarmed Strike, spiked gauntlets, natural weapons, or something else that can't be dropped?

-Hyp.

 

[Mad Zagyg]

For all those saying that you cannot take an AOO during the surprise round with Combat Reflexes because you are unable to act, consider that an AOO is not, in fact, an action. It's not a standard, full round, partial, swift, free, or immediate action... it's just something that a character can do under certain circumstances defined in the rules, with a certain frequency (normally, once per round, only when threatening an enemy who provokes, and simultaneously not flat-footed). Actions are defined game terms. It seems reasonable to me that "unable to act" most literally means, "unable to take actions" since that is the game term that most closely matches the terminology used. AOOs are very well fleshed out in the rules, and are most certainly not actions... so, if all the conditions for using an AOO are met, I see no reason why one could not be taken.

To me, it is not so clear that AoOs are not considered "actions." I cannot find anywhere that confirms or denies this. The definition of attack of opportunity in the glossary of the PHB says:

"A single extra melee attack per round that a combatant can make when an opponent within reach takes an action that provokes attacks of opportunity."

Then read how an "attack" is defined in the PHB:

"Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent."

Seems to me that an AoO allows for a free "attack."

An "attack" is most definitely an action.

I share Venator's opinon that surprise prevents any type of action to be taken to the "unaware combatant."

 

[Goolpsy]

Being unaware doesn't state that you cant take actions... you just cant do anything... no need to define weather or not AOO is an action or not..
The whole argument is based on 2 assumptions... "altering" either one to a just as probable one destroys the argument instantly...

 

[frankthedm]

I was waiting for this topic to come up. I have always run it as take AoOs, even when surprided, but that does bone rogues. I could go either way TBH.

It hinges on the text of "act" and whether one views Surprised different than just flat footed.

Reading it as you have to have rolled initiative before you can use Combat reflexes reduces the feats power and makes alertness a little more valuable to low spot characters.

Reading it as Take AoOs even before you roll initiative makes it more like Psycho-Veteran's Reflexes that ought to have you taking AoOs' on friends and family members who walk up on you.

 

[robberbaron]

Frank, the voice of sanity.

Many posters here seem very confused.
To me, doing something (whatever that is) is an action.

To hopefully explain my thoughts on this subject:
Noticing the head full of teeth that has surprisingly appeared and is aimed at your (or your comrade's) head is not an action. If you are surprised, you do not see it coming. If not, you do.
If you are not surprised, you are flat-footed and, if you have Combat Reflexes, you can have a slap at the head as it comes in, providing it moves through your threatened area or otherwise provokes an attack of opportunity.

Combat Reflexes + Reach Weapon + good Spot/Listen/Touchsight/etc = Potential Death to Ambushers.

Flame on.

 

[frankthedm]

Out of curiosity, would you also permit someone to make an AoO if they were:

Dazed? No
Cowering? No
Disabled? Yes. Would he take a point of damage for doing so? Yes
Panicked, assuming not cornered? Yes, in a flailing "Get the hell away from me!" manner.
Stunned, assuming Improved Unarmed Strike, spiked gauntlets, natural weapons, or something else that can't be dropped? No

RAW be damned

 

[IanB]

Attacks of opportunity do not necessarily appear to be actions by my reading. They are melee attacks, but making a melee attack does not by necessity involve taking the Attack standard action. Nowhere are they specifically defined as actions.

This does open a bit of a can of worms with 'can you take an AOO when stunned?' or under other restrictive conditions. One possible solution to that is in the requirement that you threaten a creature in order to take an attack of opportunity against it. Does a stunned creature (it will usually be one with natural weapons since manufactured weapons would be dropped) threaten squares within its reach? The wording is basically "you threaten squares into which you can attack". On its turn, a stunned creature certainly can't attack; is that enough to declare that it does not threaten squares it can reach?

If so, then you can reconcile everything and stlil allow AOOs in the surprise round (which I intend to continue doing, RAW or not, since it matches what I assume is the intent of combat reflexes in the first place.)