A type of gnome seems appropriate for this, considering their affinity for burrowing mammals.
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Quick Question: Seeking a burrowing Humanoid
- Thread starter Greenfield
- Start date
MarkB
Legend
Just tell the DM "We do something else, and it kills the fungus." If he's not going to play by the rules, why should you?
But it's out of order for a player to stamp his/her feet if they are not permitted to play a Pixie Samurai in an established Historical Greek campaign.
Greenfield
Adventurer
I've seen DMs make rulings I really didn't agree with. I've seen DMs be so bad that the entire table got up and walked away.
I've never seen a DM be wrong, when it comes to a rules interpretation. It's not possible.
I've never seen a DM be wrong, when it comes to a rules interpretation. It's not possible.
Greenfield
Adventurer
I had a conversation with the DM last night. He called to discuss the game, and the character of a new player.
He said he was "sensing some frustration" on our part. I bit my tongue, deciding not to go on a rant. (I almost made it too
)
He said that we needed "Knowledge - Biology". I pointed out that science skills like that were for D20 Modern, not D&D 3.5.
He said that it was the kind of thing any farmer would have, or we could ask a Druid. I politely asked if his Druid (the one he plays when he isn't DMing) had it, and he admitted that he didn't. So we discussed the difference between "Knowledge - Nature", and "Knowledge - Biology". (Aside from the fact that one exists in D&D 3.5 and the other doesn't.) Knowledge - Nature had been the wrong skill because genetically engineered fungi aren't natural.
He explained that the fungus was genetically engineered to stop the armies of the Pharo, and that such armies included spell casters. Thus, implicitly, it would be 100% proof against anything resembling a magical resolution, as well as being 100% proof against anything that could be done by brute force or massive manpower. When I mentioned the idea of tunneling under, he asked why we would think that the AntiMagic would extend upwards for hundreds of feet, but not downward underground?
With a sinking feeling, I explained about "Line of Effect", knowing full well that he wouldn't feel that his "something else" had to follow the rules and limits of Magic. I added that these were the only rules my character knew, and he had to work within them.
I pointed out that I could go full Munchkin and bury his fields under a mountain of salt, or a few thousand gallons of alchemical fire, or acid, or ice, but that I wouldn't because that would break the spirit of the game. Once you establish that "hulking out" is possible, there's no way to go back.
I also floated the idea that would come into my character's head: That this village didn't need "Saving" and never had, that this was a distraction, or even a planned death trap, engineered by the opposition.
He was shocked by the idea that we might walk away. I pointed out that, in character, we had no way of knowing that there was a DM out there, who had planned all this and was counting on us getting through. He admitted that there were really only two solutions to the problem, and that all others would fail. I pointed out that we had no way of finding those solutions, since all attempts at in-game research were blocked.
He seemed to have the idea that Knowledge skills could only help you with things you had seen before. I tried to explain about Knowledge - Arcana being the catch all "know about weird stuff that doesn't fit into any other category", and that Knowledge skills in general were there to reflect study and research, not just personal experience. I mean, who need to make a dice roll to handle familiar things?
And while Knowledge - Dungeoneering wouldn't tell us about this specific fungus, it would tell us what worked against other fungus monsters people had encountered.
I don't think I got through.
So, knowing in advance that tunneling will fail (he as much as said it would), and having learned that we need a successful roll on a skill that none of have, and none of us *can* have, I'm preparing my character for our next adventure. I see us walking away from this one.
In the past he's tried these opponents who, by definition, have thought of everything, and are prepared for anything you might try. Then he wonders why we fail at those challenges.
Apparently he thinks we can read his mind.
He said he was "sensing some frustration" on our part. I bit my tongue, deciding not to go on a rant. (I almost made it too
)He said that we needed "Knowledge - Biology". I pointed out that science skills like that were for D20 Modern, not D&D 3.5.
He said that it was the kind of thing any farmer would have, or we could ask a Druid. I politely asked if his Druid (the one he plays when he isn't DMing) had it, and he admitted that he didn't. So we discussed the difference between "Knowledge - Nature", and "Knowledge - Biology". (Aside from the fact that one exists in D&D 3.5 and the other doesn't.) Knowledge - Nature had been the wrong skill because genetically engineered fungi aren't natural.
He explained that the fungus was genetically engineered to stop the armies of the Pharo, and that such armies included spell casters. Thus, implicitly, it would be 100% proof against anything resembling a magical resolution, as well as being 100% proof against anything that could be done by brute force or massive manpower. When I mentioned the idea of tunneling under, he asked why we would think that the AntiMagic would extend upwards for hundreds of feet, but not downward underground?
With a sinking feeling, I explained about "Line of Effect", knowing full well that he wouldn't feel that his "something else" had to follow the rules and limits of Magic. I added that these were the only rules my character knew, and he had to work within them.
I pointed out that I could go full Munchkin and bury his fields under a mountain of salt, or a few thousand gallons of alchemical fire, or acid, or ice, but that I wouldn't because that would break the spirit of the game. Once you establish that "hulking out" is possible, there's no way to go back.
I also floated the idea that would come into my character's head: That this village didn't need "Saving" and never had, that this was a distraction, or even a planned death trap, engineered by the opposition.
He was shocked by the idea that we might walk away. I pointed out that, in character, we had no way of knowing that there was a DM out there, who had planned all this and was counting on us getting through. He admitted that there were really only two solutions to the problem, and that all others would fail. I pointed out that we had no way of finding those solutions, since all attempts at in-game research were blocked.
He seemed to have the idea that Knowledge skills could only help you with things you had seen before. I tried to explain about Knowledge - Arcana being the catch all "know about weird stuff that doesn't fit into any other category", and that Knowledge skills in general were there to reflect study and research, not just personal experience. I mean, who need to make a dice roll to handle familiar things?
And while Knowledge - Dungeoneering wouldn't tell us about this specific fungus, it would tell us what worked against other fungus monsters people had encountered.
I don't think I got through.
So, knowing in advance that tunneling will fail (he as much as said it would), and having learned that we need a successful roll on a skill that none of have, and none of us *can* have, I'm preparing my character for our next adventure. I see us walking away from this one.
In the past he's tried these opponents who, by definition, have thought of everything, and are prepared for anything you might try. Then he wonders why we fail at those challenges.
Apparently he thinks we can read his mind.
MarkB
Legend
Wow. So you need a Knowledge skill that doesn't exist, in order to understand a scientific process that's beyond the scope of a medieval fantasy world. And he's surprised that you're having trouble?
Did this stuff actually succeed in stopping the armies of the Pharaoh? Who engineered it? Whoever it was, did they create some means of controlling it, to prevent it from backfiring on them?
Without the means to understand it directly, about your only option would be to research how it was dealt with in the past.
Short of that, I guess you really are just back to "We do something else" - as players rather than characters.
Did this stuff actually succeed in stopping the armies of the Pharaoh? Who engineered it? Whoever it was, did they create some means of controlling it, to prevent it from backfiring on them?
Without the means to understand it directly, about your only option would be to research how it was dealt with in the past.
Short of that, I guess you really are just back to "We do something else" - as players rather than characters.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Don't know of the Egyptian armies have seen it yet.
As for control, it grows at an incredible rate, but only within the bounds of its area.
As for researching how it was dealt with in the past, it wasn't: The stuff is new, nobody's ever seen it before, or heard of it.
Gather Information checks on the group responsible got us their name and nothing more, no matter what we rolled or where we checked. (We rolled in the 30s).
Bardic Knowledge checks rolled in the 40s got us the name of the group, and nothing about the fungus. No legends or stories about it or them, anywhere. They simply sprang into existence, fully formed, apparently.
They're called "The Grafters", or "The Brotherhood of Scientific craftsmen." I'm tempted to call them BS for short.
As for control, it grows at an incredible rate, but only within the bounds of its area.
As for researching how it was dealt with in the past, it wasn't: The stuff is new, nobody's ever seen it before, or heard of it.
Gather Information checks on the group responsible got us their name and nothing more, no matter what we rolled or where we checked. (We rolled in the 30s).
Bardic Knowledge checks rolled in the 40s got us the name of the group, and nothing about the fungus. No legends or stories about it or them, anywhere. They simply sprang into existence, fully formed, apparently.
They're called "The Grafters", or "The Brotherhood of Scientific craftsmen." I'm tempted to call them BS for short.
Grogg of the North
Adventurer
Is there anyway to divine some sort of answer? I know a lot of people treat the spell "Path of the Exalted" as "Ask the DM what you're supposed to do".
Otherwise you have to make a decision based on no knowledge and the inability to gain any meaningful knowledge.
... Yea ... I think you are well within your rights to say "No, we go pirate hunting instead."
Otherwise you have to make a decision based on no knowledge and the inability to gain any meaningful knowledge.
... Yea ... I think you are well within your rights to say "No, we go pirate hunting instead."
Greenfield
Adventurer
I wrote up some of our earlier adventures in this campaign in the Story Hour forum. They're down a few pages, but look for Curse of Darkness.
In the prologue I lay out the game world, it's limits, some house rules, and the over all premises and goals.
Three of those special limits/rules that come into play here are:
1) No Teleport, Greater Teleport, etc. Instant transportation becomes too casual after a while, and removes the "overland encounter" part of play.
2) No Raise Dead, Resurrection, or True Resurrection in this game world. You want to bring someone back, you need to take a trip to the Land of the Dead, find their spirit, and escort them out. (We fudged this one with , Reincarnation, Revivification, and Revenence.)
3) The gods are unavailable to answer question, they're off fighting a war. No Divination class spells that call upon a deity or high end divine source for information. The best available is Augry.
So, in a game where we're limited to mortal information sources, we've tended to stack skill points into Gather Information and the various Knowledge skills.
When a DM essentially bans the use of those skills, we're flying blind. There is no alternative information source.
Now one problem I have, personally, is that I'm a fairly dominant personality at that table. I have to be very careful what I say, lest my thought or suggestion be taken with too much weight, and I end up dictating to other players, or the DM. In essence, I bite my tongue a lot.
I mean, it's no fun if there's no challenge, and with this group I'm kind of the definition of "undue influence". I just have to be very careful what influence I have, and that means I can't gripe too loud. Sometimes, I can't gripe at all. (I've been known to fluster a DM by humming "Wabash Cannonball" when he was on one of his railroad plot lines.)
In the prologue I lay out the game world, it's limits, some house rules, and the over all premises and goals.
Three of those special limits/rules that come into play here are:
1) No Teleport, Greater Teleport, etc. Instant transportation becomes too casual after a while, and removes the "overland encounter" part of play.
2) No Raise Dead, Resurrection, or True Resurrection in this game world. You want to bring someone back, you need to take a trip to the Land of the Dead, find their spirit, and escort them out. (We fudged this one with , Reincarnation, Revivification, and Revenence.)
3) The gods are unavailable to answer question, they're off fighting a war. No Divination class spells that call upon a deity or high end divine source for information. The best available is Augry.
So, in a game where we're limited to mortal information sources, we've tended to stack skill points into Gather Information and the various Knowledge skills.
When a DM essentially bans the use of those skills, we're flying blind. There is no alternative information source.
Now one problem I have, personally, is that I'm a fairly dominant personality at that table. I have to be very careful what I say, lest my thought or suggestion be taken with too much weight, and I end up dictating to other players, or the DM. In essence, I bite my tongue a lot.
I mean, it's no fun if there's no challenge, and with this group I'm kind of the definition of "undue influence". I just have to be very careful what influence I have, and that means I can't gripe too loud. Sometimes, I can't gripe at all. (I've been known to fluster a DM by humming "Wabash Cannonball" when he was on one of his railroad plot lines.)
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