Quicker than the Eye + Expert Tactician

[Malcer]

According to the Song and Silence FAQ, it is possible to use Expert Tactician more than once in combination with Quicker than the Eye, basically whenever the opponent is denied his Dexterity modifier in melee combat.

My question is what would happen if I were a rogue and had Improved Invisibilty cast on me, would I receive a free attack each time I was in melee range? (I could just tumble and meet several opponenent in a row and if I interpret the S&S FAQs correctly, I would get a free melee attack each time!!!)

After re-reading Expert Tactician, I am not so sure whether even the Song & Silence FAQs are correct. If I understand correctly, Expert Tactician works only once a round, but if that is the case, why do the S&S FAQ say that it works (at least) twice?

Any comments?

 

[Murrdox]

Okay, I don't remember the expert tactician feat exactly.. but that feat allows you to take an extra attack anytime your opponent is denied his dex bonus, correct?

If you had Improved Invisibility on you, then yes, you would get a free attack because of it. However, if you're talking about tumbling past several opponents, and getting attacks on all of them with ONE tumble... that clearly wouldn't happen. Nothing about expert tactician allows you to attack multiple opponents per round. However, I could perhaps see how multiple uses of expert tactician could come into play if you were cleaving between opponents while having Improved Invisibility cast upon you.

 

[Malcer]

But if that is the case then I don't understand the Song & Silence FAQ who basically allows to use Expert Tactician more than once per round, which is contradictory to the description of the Expert Tactician Feat. The FAQ talk about a free attack which is caused by "whenever a melee opponent is denied his dexterity modifier". Free, strictly speaking, should mean free and would thereby be a free action, which means that a scenario like I described before would be possible if the Song & Silence FAQ were taken literally.

What I think is that the ruling that is given within the Song & Silence FAQ is flawed, if not, than nothing would prevent an action like I suggested.

 

[Murrdox]

You can't make attacks in the midst of a Tumble. Before, yes, and after, certainly. Not during.

I don't have the text of the Expert Tactician feat, but the FAQ certainly indicates that if your opponent is denied his dex bonus multiple times in one round via Qucker than the Eye that you do get multiple free attacks from Expert Tactician.

There must be something in the text of the feat on this, though. Otherwise if you were invisible, and your opponent were denied his dex bonus to attack.. by the rules you're using, since Expert Tactician gives you attacks as free actions, I could make a seemingly infinite number of attacks on him. I'm sure there's text in the feat which prevents this.

 

[Malcer]

That is what started me thinking on the feat and on the advice that the Song & Silence FAQ suggested. I figured that these free attacks would basically be AoO, which limits the amount of attacks to one for each opponent.

I agree that it is impossible to use Tumble in that way, but you could consider Mobility or Spring Attack with my example.

The main flaw in the Song & Silence FAQ is the wording of the Expert Tactician feat (unfortunately I have only Sword & Fist to check this right now), which I think limits the extra attack through that feat to one per round.

 

[Desdinova]

The version of the feat in Song and Silence superceded the one from Sword and Fist (which is stated in the feat in Song and Silence) and says that you are limited to using it against only one foe even if multiple ones within your reach are denied their Dex bonus.

 

[Malcer]

But that seems only to preclude attacks on other opponents, but what about the opponent that your facing? According to the Song & Silence FAQs, you get at least two attacks. How many would you get if you were invisible if that was true?

 

[Desdinova]

The feat tells you right at the beginning of the benefit description. "You can make one extra melee attack .... against one foe..."

It doesn't matter if it is the foe you are facing or another foe within your reach.

The FAQ speaks of a second attack in the round, but it would by my opinion that they forgot the limitation on Expert Tactician or else forgot it hat been changed from the original version and the FAQ question should have the following added on to the end of the last sentence
..."were it not for the fact that the Expert Tactician feat limits this to one extra attack per round".

In either case, yes the FAQ is in error on the point of getting more attacks out of it than the one (unless they've gone and made another version of the feat) .