Quintessential Fighter/Arms & Armor/Sword & Fist: What books are you using?
- Thread starter Kaptain_Kantrip
- Start date
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
TBoarder said:
Sorry, I appreciate the fact that you enjoy S&F, but this made me laugh... the 6 pages of errata fixed the few problems?
LOL
Hard to believe this thread is seeing so many S&F apologists! The book was badly done by nearly all accounts. 6 pages of errata is not indicative of a competent, professional, polished product. I do understand the mad rush by WoTC to get it out, but sheesh! Somebody there should've seen the writing on the wall and sent it back for some *severe* tweaking prior to publishing it. And as for the rest of the classbooks (MoTW excepted), all these world-specific or tiny (more appropriate for NPCs) niche specialist PrCs are just not useful to the vast majority of gamers.
Psion
Adventurer
Kaptain_Kantrip said:
Have you considered the fact that we're not apoligists and you are whiners? It's all a matter of perspective.
Nearly all acocounts?
Take a look at your poll. S&F is the clear winner. I think you have a bad case of denial.
They should not have that much errata, true. But they have errata, they service their product, and the next printing will incorporate it. Let's not make everything so black-and-white, shall we?
"Ooooh, it has errata, it must suck."
Funny, it manged to be good and see lots of use before the errata and stands to be even better now.
Oh, please. Do us all a favor and stop pretending to speak for "a vast majority of gamers" ... and contrary to your own poll, nonetheless! Next time, don't ask questions you don't want to know the answer to.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Psion, where were you when S&F was released? The "vast majority" of reactions to the product were extremely negative and there was more confusion surrounding its rules than any other 3e release to date. And I still don't see many people praising it as a shining example of what a class book should be.
As to the poll results, I take the greater number of people using S&F as indicative of several things, more than as an indication that S&F is a "must-have" resource:
1) Greater distribution and product awareness led to increased sales. Arms & Amor and TQF presumably have much smaller print runs, less advertising to generate product awareness, and weaker overall distribution than WoTC's S&F. S&F is in Barnes & Noble and B. Dalton's, but TQF and A&A are only in game stores so far as I know.
2) S&F is "official" (optional) rules that has the Dungeons & Dragons logo stamped right on the cover, so people tend to infer it's going to be of reasonable quality (and been properly playtested, which surely wasn't the case!).
3) Everybody ran out and bought S&F anyway, or before they heard it was riddled with errors and/or of questionably utility, because everybody was hungry for new 3e material at the time (befdore the d20 market glut) and the book was hyped through the roof.
4) S&F has been out far longer than TQF, A&A or WAR.
I'm not saying S&F is so bad or broken as to be useless. It's not. Some of the PrCs are intriguing, some of the new weapons and magic items are cool, and certainly the maps and stronghold construction times/costs are useful and well done. My main complaint with S&F is so many world-specific and niche classes and so much obviously "broken" rules culminating in a disgraceful 6 (count 'em, six!) pages of errata (most of which should have been obvious to the author and editor from the start, IMO, regardless of whether the R&D Review Panel was there).
That said, do I still use S&F? Sure. I paid my $20 and I'll milk every last drop I can out of it, but it does see much less use in my games than the other WoTC class books and third party d20 material.
I found Mongoose's TQF, AEG's WAR and Bastion's Arms & Armor to all be of much more utility in nearly every detail. In short, I felt cheated by my purchase of S&F. I have no such reservations for the money I happily spent on TQF, War and A&A.
Anyway, Psion, there's no need to be so antagonistic towards me. I don't pretend to speak for everybody and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
As to the poll results, I take the greater number of people using S&F as indicative of several things, more than as an indication that S&F is a "must-have" resource:
1) Greater distribution and product awareness led to increased sales. Arms & Amor and TQF presumably have much smaller print runs, less advertising to generate product awareness, and weaker overall distribution than WoTC's S&F. S&F is in Barnes & Noble and B. Dalton's, but TQF and A&A are only in game stores so far as I know.
2) S&F is "official" (optional) rules that has the Dungeons & Dragons logo stamped right on the cover, so people tend to infer it's going to be of reasonable quality (and been properly playtested, which surely wasn't the case!).
3) Everybody ran out and bought S&F anyway, or before they heard it was riddled with errors and/or of questionably utility, because everybody was hungry for new 3e material at the time (befdore the d20 market glut) and the book was hyped through the roof.
4) S&F has been out far longer than TQF, A&A or WAR.
I'm not saying S&F is so bad or broken as to be useless. It's not. Some of the PrCs are intriguing, some of the new weapons and magic items are cool, and certainly the maps and stronghold construction times/costs are useful and well done. My main complaint with S&F is so many world-specific and niche classes and so much obviously "broken" rules culminating in a disgraceful 6 (count 'em, six!) pages of errata (most of which should have been obvious to the author and editor from the start, IMO, regardless of whether the R&D Review Panel was there).
That said, do I still use S&F? Sure. I paid my $20 and I'll milk every last drop I can out of it, but it does see much less use in my games than the other WoTC class books and third party d20 material.
I found Mongoose's TQF, AEG's WAR and Bastion's Arms & Armor to all be of much more utility in nearly every detail. In short, I felt cheated by my purchase of S&F. I have no such reservations for the money I happily spent on TQF, War and A&A.
Anyway, Psion, there's no need to be so antagonistic towards me. I don't pretend to speak for everybody and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
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WizarDru
Adventurer
Kaptain_Kantrip said:
He was right here, along with the rest of us. Being released by WOTC gave S&F an edge, as did being the first classbook, it's true. But being the first FR product didn't save 'Into the Dragon's Lair' from tanking hideously, so the WOTC stamp isn't Carte Blanche.
More importantly, the major stink surrounding S&F was over a few specific items, moreso than majority of it's content. Mercurial was a bad idea then, it's a bad idea, now. Many folks also came down on S&F for being a classbook at all, and feared the return of 2e's massive splatbook campaign, with it's drastic succession of incompatible material. You'll note that every classbook since then has had less and less discussion about it, after it arrives.
This is a combination of better product, less ambitious goals, and the fact that fears have been allayed. In fact, if I had to choose, I'd rather have S&F's more ambitious approach and reel it back than have Song & Silence's dry material. Every class book has had broken material in it, bar none. Six pages of errata is not nearly so daunting if it contains detailed rules explanations and minor typo corrections. Look at that errata and see.
Do I actually use S&F in my game? Not very much, in truth...I see many of the classes useful only for NPCs, and much of the material is simply not applicable to my current game. But that's true of all the classbooks. I don't think it's the shining example of what classbooks should be...that's Tome & Blood's job, IMHO. But to claim that an overwhelming
And truthfully, when you label anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint as an apologist, and use a glittering generality like 'The book was badly done by nearly all accounts.', you're going to engender a negative reaction. Merely taking a quick trip to the d20 reviews page for Sword and Fist shows quite a few people rated it with four stars (5) and three stars (6), and one person even rated it with five stars. Hardly a universal opinion, then.
YOU PEOPLE NEED TO READ THE BOOKS BEFORE POSTING!
i have almost every single d&d 3e suppliment i can get my hands on. whatever i don't have, i've borrowed and read.
the QUINTASSENCIAL FIGHTER suppliment is one of the TOP suppliments for d&d.
Between that book and the masters of the wild, those are easily the top 2 books, put either one on top you wish to.
The QUIN FIGHTER has anything you need. it has numerous great prestige classes that aren't as inconsistant and under/overpowered as the prestige classes in each of the wizard's suppliments. <- check out the peasant hero prestige class... any book that has a prestige class for the peasant class is just great... and it almost makes you want to play a peasant for 4-5 levels!
The QUIN FIGHTER also has numerous great feats. they solve many wizards problems and they introduce tons of new fighting abilities where not every fighter is going to use spring attack by level 7! and the have no good feats to take... some feats have been mentioned in prestige classes and such, but have never been listed as attainable or given any prereques. many of the powerful ones have prerequisite feats like lightning reflexes and such... things that no one would normally take thus making them balanced... another great area is the feats that allow a person to raise their AC, much like fighters raise their attack bonuses...
some examples are improved dodge, improved armor use. improved weapon focus...
there's rules for called shots, feats for called shots and improved called shots.
reckless fighter- power attack but loose AC bonus
resting in armor feat, offhand weapon feats, fearsome display, expert marksman, improved called shot...
combat caster defense, which is basically the opposite of combat casting, where a fighter can raise the DC of a wizards cast defensivelly check by +4.
grappling feats, armor specialization...
i mean, i'm just running through the list naming some, but there's a bunch and they're all great.
there's also rules for tournament types including injury tables(nice and realistic)...
gunpowder weapons, fighting styles, mercenary tables, new weapons and armor, war machines, drafting/military troop stats for different types of troops...
i don't think anyone who reads this book would ever say its a poor suppliment.
over sword and fist- it has tons of feats that are progressions upon the old ones. a level 20 fighter from sword and fist, winds up with spring attack, expertise... every feat basically. this suppliment not only is balanced, but it allows fighters to be customized. i love the idea of specializing in a specific type of armor to fit your fighting style. i love spending a bunch of feats just to raise AC instead of spending the usual "weapon focus, power attack, specialization, dodge, mobility, spring attack"...
i am currently running a barbarian with the reckless fighter ability. basically, he goes in power attacking, but instead of dropping to hit, he drops his AC which not only seems logical, but also gives fighters a bit a versatility.
sword and fist was good for a 1st suppliment product... but this quint fighter book is really the top of the heap of suppliments. masters of the wild is great too, i think that book is a necessity for barbarians, rangers, and druids, and it makes them very fun. the barbarian rage feats allone are stunningly fun.
i have almost every single d&d 3e suppliment i can get my hands on. whatever i don't have, i've borrowed and read.
the QUINTASSENCIAL FIGHTER suppliment is one of the TOP suppliments for d&d.
Between that book and the masters of the wild, those are easily the top 2 books, put either one on top you wish to.
The QUIN FIGHTER has anything you need. it has numerous great prestige classes that aren't as inconsistant and under/overpowered as the prestige classes in each of the wizard's suppliments. <- check out the peasant hero prestige class... any book that has a prestige class for the peasant class is just great... and it almost makes you want to play a peasant for 4-5 levels!
The QUIN FIGHTER also has numerous great feats. they solve many wizards problems and they introduce tons of new fighting abilities where not every fighter is going to use spring attack by level 7! and the have no good feats to take... some feats have been mentioned in prestige classes and such, but have never been listed as attainable or given any prereques. many of the powerful ones have prerequisite feats like lightning reflexes and such... things that no one would normally take thus making them balanced... another great area is the feats that allow a person to raise their AC, much like fighters raise their attack bonuses...
some examples are improved dodge, improved armor use. improved weapon focus...
there's rules for called shots, feats for called shots and improved called shots.
reckless fighter- power attack but loose AC bonus
resting in armor feat, offhand weapon feats, fearsome display, expert marksman, improved called shot...
combat caster defense, which is basically the opposite of combat casting, where a fighter can raise the DC of a wizards cast defensivelly check by +4.
grappling feats, armor specialization...
i mean, i'm just running through the list naming some, but there's a bunch and they're all great.
there's also rules for tournament types including injury tables(nice and realistic)...
gunpowder weapons, fighting styles, mercenary tables, new weapons and armor, war machines, drafting/military troop stats for different types of troops...
i don't think anyone who reads this book would ever say its a poor suppliment.
over sword and fist- it has tons of feats that are progressions upon the old ones. a level 20 fighter from sword and fist, winds up with spring attack, expertise... every feat basically. this suppliment not only is balanced, but it allows fighters to be customized. i love the idea of specializing in a specific type of armor to fit your fighting style. i love spending a bunch of feats just to raise AC instead of spending the usual "weapon focus, power attack, specialization, dodge, mobility, spring attack"...
i am currently running a barbarian with the reckless fighter ability. basically, he goes in power attacking, but instead of dropping to hit, he drops his AC which not only seems logical, but also gives fighters a bit a versatility.
sword and fist was good for a 1st suppliment product... but this quint fighter book is really the top of the heap of suppliments. masters of the wild is great too, i think that book is a necessity for barbarians, rangers, and druids, and it makes them very fun. the barbarian rage feats allone are stunningly fun.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
WizarDru said:
Good points all well taken, Dru. In retrospect, I painted the portrait with too broad a stroke, to be sure. Thank you for a thoughtful, intelligent and honest post.
Rashak Mani
First Post
The problem of this poll is the wording... you are asked which books you have and not which you liked or prefer...
Even then... S&F is official and will not be left unused by most groups. Quint Fighter is a bonus an extra...it will always have second place independent of its merits or S&F flaws.
In my case I havent even seen a copy of Quint Fighter... none arrived in Brazil at least that I know of.
Anybody have a list of Quint Fighter Prestige Classes ? In the official site there was none...
Even then... S&F is official and will not be left unused by most groups. Quint Fighter is a bonus an extra...it will always have second place independent of its merits or S&F flaws.
In my case I havent even seen a copy of Quint Fighter... none arrived in Brazil at least that I know of.
Anybody have a list of Quint Fighter Prestige Classes ? In the official site there was none...
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Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
The poll itself was meant to see who was using what. The problem came in with the thread's title (oops!) and when I posted my opinions as to which I preferred, and then some people thought that the poll was about which book was best. It's not. The posts are mostly about which books are best, but they are not the poll and should have nothing to do with the votes.
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WizarDru said:
If you read the review that gave the book 5 stars, the reviewer only gave it that rating to offset the negative reviews, NOT because he thought he deserved it. The reviewer flat out admitted that he would give the book 3 stars, maybe 4.
Kaptain Kantrip gave many valid reasons why he believes S&F is so far ahead. I agree with him, but unfortunately can't give my own vote in this poll, since while I don't just use the Core Rules, I also don't use any of the listed books (I'll use any of the other 4 class books, Magic of Faerun, etc, NOT S&F, even with the errata). I refuse to purchase any more Mongoose books after being sorely disappointed by their Necromancy and Chaos Magic books. I haven't even seen Arms & Armor yet, so I can't make any comments on it at all.
As for a book needing errata, I normally don't mind it too much. Errors happen. I can deal with the 10 pages of errata for the Player's Handbook. It's a huge book that is all rules. The same goes for Magic of Faerun. Sword & Fist though is an amazingly sparse book when it comes to the "crunchy" stuff that so often needs errata. It's the sparseness combined with the amount of errata that annoys people the most I believe.
Even more depressing is comparing Magic of Faerun with all of the class books. MoF has more utility than all 5 class books combined. The fact that WotC was responsible for both makes me wonder where they slipped up with the class books when they had the template for what they should've been right there, in their hands. I'd have been more than happy paying $30 a piece for the 5 class books if they were of the same level of polish and usefulness as Magic of Faerun.
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