Quitting a group & starting anew..ground rules?

[Emirikol]

Since I saw that a similar thread on this issue had gone bad, perhaps we do this a different way.

I've been through many groups over the past 24 years (I'm 33 now) and discovered (again) that there comes a time where you just need to quit a group and start over somewhere else. It's never personal when you quit a group. It's just what's best for your sanity. Afterall, why let someone else wreck YOUR good time.
I recently quit a group that I'd been with for several years. Most of the players had kind of gone sour and the 'big idea' was scattered. We had a few whiners, a few drunks, and too much non-gaming drama going on. So, I just quit the whole thing and started over with a couple of my players. I just joined a new group nearby and am happier already. As a DM, I think this is even easier because there's ALWAYS a demand for DM's.
Since it was a new group, I talked to the guy who set it up and he and I laid down a few ground rules that we went over with the group. Nearly everyone in the group agreed on all of the points because nearly all of us had similar BAD experiences in the past.

We have limited game time (2-3 sessions / month for 4-5 hours per session) so we try to game during that time, not do things that we can do the other 332 hours before the next session.

Here are our ground rules:
1. Everybody fills out the potential player questionaire (email me if you want it) and nobody invites anyone else without the whole group's permission.

2. People are here to game. If you're not here to game, you're in the wrong place.

3. Nobody sits at the table until their character is finished and has been reviewed by the DM (that includes levelling). You and everyone else in the group have 332 hours to finish your characters before the next session. Is that enough time?

4. Players police their own. That means that the DM is not a baby sitter. The DM assigns 2 or more players to set the offending player straight or kick him out.

5. Nobody questions the DM's rulings during the game unless it would mean instant death for someone's character otherwise and they've already looked up the rule and have their finger on the actual paragraph and are about to read it out loud. If it's abiguuous, the DM's ruling stands [period]. You are at the wrong place if you just want to whine about every little thing the DM does (http://www.mandrgames.com/WHINERDoll.htm).

6. Players who create stupidly munchkin characters can expect a stupidly short life and not at the expense of the other PC's lives.

7. Time is of the essence so plan ahead (bring food and beer rather than stopping the game to order and receive). We don't stop the whole game for someone who needs to take a cell phone call or go have a smoke.

8. Want x.p.? Participate. All x.p. is given anonymously via email and will vary 10-50% from the next PC's.

9. Nobody is a 'permanent' member of the group. Anyone, including the DM, can be 'voted out' at any time. Nothing personal. It's just gaming.

10. Every couple months we'll talk about how to make the game better. Bring some positive feedback as well as some things you'd like improved.

11. Every player can expect to have their character die at some point. Try to be mature about it.

Of course, it's not that harsh in reality, but we lay down some anti-pet peeves the first session. I've done this in the past and found that players want to know stuff like that. House rules and ground rules. If a DM can't get off his butt to set these, I'd think twice about what you've gotten yourself into

Others you wish you'd done (or will do?)

jh
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[Hodgie]

Well... none of your rules are inherently too harsh, but in writing they come across too harsh in my opinion. Being able to be voted out at any time is something that seems reasonable. Indeed, if a plurality of people want you gone, you probably should be gone. But to put it in writing seems like it would rain on my D&D parade.

 

[Emirikol]

ah, the memories

>writing seem harsh

Ah, writing angry from memories...

Memories of players showing up to themed-PC sessions without any character at all and then sticking the group out during an encounter so that they could look up a more powerful character (wow, did my character's familiar just die so that you could look up the proper Greyhawk god to give you Strength AND war?)

Memories of countless hours wasted on players who were there to bitch about how bad their lives/week/day sucked (across the table during the game no doubt, during a combat, with people in negatives)

Memories of rules lawyers looking up the stats on monsters saying,"Dm, you can't do that, it say's here that orcs can't do that" or "that's not a spell!"

Memories of people bringing spouses to the game to 'watch'

Memories of players getting too drunk or stoned to play and making sure everyone else knows it

Memories of players getting up from the table to go sell drugs to people at the door

Memories of characters so min-maxed that the player just sat there and didn't have any fun unless there was a mounted/archer/toe-to-toe combat

Memories of DM's who feel it's their job to tell the players about every character they've ever played..or "I just have to relate this completely unrelated story..."

Memories of spouses making the game miserable if their spouse wanted to role-play (or if they're just not getting along)

Memories of people there to play out their sickest fantasies

Memories of players who steal your stuff

Memories of mooch players who never contribute anything to the group

Memories of players who are ALWAYS 1 hour late

Memories of players who not only never role-play, but steer the game away from anything even resembling a non-military-campaign

Memories of players who've played for 15 years, but can't seem to get their attack roll numbers added up, adding 30 minutes to each combat while we painfully watch them add it up on their fingers

Memories of DM's who can't describe ANYTHING to save their life

Memories of players who just sit there, meanwhile other people you'd like to invite to the game can't get in because' we have too many already.'

Memories of drunk-girl players (no, not fun)

Memories of players who never update their fighter/wizard/thief character except 5 minutes into the intro-boxed-text

Memories of players who refuse to read the house rules (what? no ELVES in Hyboria? What kind of world is this? I don't care if there are 29 other races. No elves? I'm making one anyways and you can't stop me! Afterall, I'm a permanent member!)

Memories of DM's doing favors for the girl in the group who's giving them some nookie after the game

Memories of people ordering food during the descriptive intro and having it arrive during the dramatic-complex combat

Memories of parties of rogues and some jerk that decides to play a paladin (no, not fun)

Memories of hours of DM prep time only to have two players cancel last minute

..but mostly, memories of the other 98% of the time, which is what keeps me playing.

jh
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[jdrakeh]

Some of your rules seem reasonable while others seem... err... excessive (no breaks to order food, for example). You kind of come off like that die-hard, craps his pants at the table rather than take a bathroom break, kind of gamer (i.e., batshit crazy). I would suggest that, instead, you try drafting a social contract - a similar document where everybody in the group has some input as to what the rules are, as opposed to them being forced to accept your list of demands.

 

[Shadowslayer]

I voted yes to ground rules. However, the way yours are worded says to me that you're expecting trouble from the outset. Kind of like going out on a first date with someone who rattles off all the shabby stuff her ex did, then says "so you won't do any of that stuff, right?"

I'd personally take issue with 5 thru 8.

5. Nobody questions the DM's rulings during the game unless it would mean instant death for someone's character otherwise and they've already looked up the rule and have their finger on the actual paragraph and are about to read it out loud. If it's abiguuous, the DM's ruling stands [period].

If the DM is obviously not applying a rule properly, I'd expect to be able to point it out.

6. Players who create stupidly munchkin characters can expect a stupidly short life and not at the expense of the other PC's lives.

Tell me what a stupidly munchkin character is. Am I not allowed to try and build an effective character?

7. Time is of the essence. We don't take smoke breaks. We don't stop to order food.

Whatever. If you can't take a few moments time out, then forget it. I play to relax, not to keep up a breakneck play pace. Does this mean I cant take a 5 minute run to the store for some Cokes?

8. Want x.p.? Participate. All x.p. is given anonymously via email and will vary 10-50% from the next PC's.

If my PC contributes to overcoming obstacles and challenges, then I should get my share of the XP...even if I am a quiet player. You state that PCs will all get different XP, so I can only assume you have some non-standard, handwavey way of calculating XP.

I can only presume from reading your rules that you live in an area where D&D players grow on trees. Wish I was that lucky. I only know that if I laid down a rule sheet like that one, I'd probably offend half the guys that wanted to play...then I wouldn't have a game at all.

Rules I'd consider would be more like:
"interparty conflict is kept to a minimum...we're here to battle the challenges laid out before us, not each other."
"You must be ready to act, with the proper rule referenced, by the time your initiative comes up...combat shouldn't take all night"

That kind of stuff.

 

[Emirikol]

I'd personally take issue with 5 thru 8. I can only presume from reading your rules that you live in an area where D&D players grow on trees.
Rules I'd consider would be more like:
"interparty conflict is kept to a minimum...we're here to battle the challenges laid out before us, not each other."
"You must be ready to act, with the proper rule referenced, by the time your initiative comes up...combat shouldn't take all night"

Yes, I am very fortunate. I keep an ad up at the local game stores here in Colorado and get 2-3 requests to join per _month_.

Of course the wording isn't that bitter in the house rulebook, but it's essentially something that my players (past & present) have come up with over the years. We just don't have time for people that aren't there to game, who aren't ready to game, or who aren't serious. We can get together to shoot the sh*t _anytime_ but gaming is preciousss to ussss.

As for making effective characters, I always ask players, "How do you define that?" Are you just making him a tank because you've always wanted to completely outshine the other players with your +8 BAB/+12dmg at first level, meanwhile not being able to participate in any other part of the game, leaving you bored when there's no combat going on and blaming me and the other players for not fulfilling the dreams of your completely over-specialized character at the expense of the other players who chose to play less 'effective' and more 'balanced' characters? Should I throw giants at the party at first level because you wouldn't be challenged by anything less?

It took me a few years, but learned that most players will respond to their experiences when creating characters, so if you throw more non-combat challenges at them, they'll choose other abilities. Hence, I NEVER pass up a chance to ridicule-to-tears the players who make tanks with 8 charisma's and always encourage the other players to do the same. Think you're getting that girl? Wrong-o! You get to make love to your camel again tonight trollee. Another good one is that traps don't do damage, they maim or kill permanently.

jh


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[pogre]

Your rules seem wise to me. I don't bother with ground rules, but I do not hesitate to throw a player out of a campaign either. I'm usually very polite, but very firm about it - because you are absolutely right - gaming time is precious at our age.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Many of the rules I agree with, others should get you voted off the island. Rule 7 should get you hanged.

Gaming is a social activity, having rules to make it less social is silly. Rather than ban ordering food schedule it - build it in, and let the players get some socializing in while the food is being et. If they want to talk about out of game stuff tell 'em to hold it till the pizza arrives.

And you have meetings to add new rules to this? Better to have a meeting to remove some. And vote the DM off the island while you are at it.

The Auld Grump

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Many of the rules I agree with, others should get you voted off the island. Rule 7 should get you hanged.

Gaming is a social activity, having rules to make it less social is silly. Rather than ban ordering food schedule it - build it in, and let the players get some socializing in while the food is being et. If they want to talk about out of game stuff tell 'em to hold it till the pizza arrives.

And you have meetings to add new rules to this? Better to have a meeting to remove some. And vote the DM off the island while you are at it.

The Auld Grump

Pretty much my sentiments as well. Also, in my group, the game session is about the only time we do get together anymore so there is going to be out of game chatter. Games are precious to us too but we aren't quite as anal about it. For example we would probably never think of making rules to govern our games' social activity.

 

[siege72]

I agree with the content of your rules, but the way they're written is very authoritarian.

One thing I've learned from experience is that rules lawyers love this kind of list, because it gives them wriggle room. For example... a smoker could argue that allowing bathroom breaks but not smoke breaks is unfair (or say they're going potty, and go for a smoke). I've had players make more idiotic and weasel-y arguments in the past.

Here's a couple of rewrites, to stay "more positive" and avoid loopholes.
"All player positions are by invitation only. Due to the intensive nature of the game, only the players are welcome at sessions."

"Being prepared, on time, and reliable matter. Please be aware that the group does not stop for food breaks, phone calls, etc. and plan accordingly"

"Experience is given for participation and role-player. Munchkin/tweaked-out characters will be strongly discouraged."

"Players who engage in behaviors like cheating, metagaming, rules lawyering, being unprepared, disrespectful conduct, or half-a$$ing the game may be asked to leave."


But in general, I agree with the need to fore-warn new players about what will and won't be accepted.