Race Character Optimisation: Just Choose Dwarf

[Aulirophile]

Really? Actually there are enough feats out there that you can easily afford with 18 Strength and 15 Wisdom and 15 Constitution...

But obviously you are not interested in a civil discussion... you just call out badwrongfun and retarded and don´t even reply in a cohesive way...

-1 from strength +1 from wisdom on devoted challenge = +0 on combat challenge attacks. So you are objectively wrong when you say that dwarves now get +1 to everything.

Compared to a human...? Because the next best Fighter races also have a Wis bonus (Barring Dragonborn, who only really used to come equal in Paragon, because of one feat, and only if you built around it). So, yes, -1 to everything.

And no, you can't, not without giving up something. That is the point: Dwarves don't sacrifice anything to get these things, and they used to. Now they don't have to make the sacrifice that they used to, and they still get to keep all their goodies, goodies which are vastly superior to the options other races have.

You being wrong doesn't make me uninterested in a civil discussion, it just means you're wrong. People will play what they want, but from an optimization stand point, there is no reason to pick anything but a Dwarf for most builds now. It is like Rangers and Twin Strike, it isn't an option, if you want optimal: this is what you pick. Before it was a tough choice. And anyone who thinks that is not true is not terribly familiar with Dwarven Feat Support, Fighters, or Wardens. Just for starters.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ok, slowly...

Dwarves get devoted challenge, which effectively makes combat challenge attacks

str + wis vs AC and 1[w]+str + wis damage.

Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Dwarf, fighter, Combat Challenge class feature
Benefit: When you make a melee basic attack granted by Combat Challenge, you gain a bonus to the attack and damage rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Dwarves now have the option to chose between +2 Str and Con or +2 Wis and Con.

If you chose to put your shifting bonus on Strength, you don´t get it for wisdom.

So dwarves are not better on everything by +1 as they were before... and they are not better than humans with combat superiority buffed opportunity attacks, as they get either +2 strength OR +2 Wisdom.

edit: no question they are better now, and i had rather hoped they get a different stat bump, but they are not so far overpowered as you make them.

 

[Aulirophile]

Your argument that Dwarves are not the default choice is that they have a Dwarf only feat that is vastly superior to the feats any other Str/Wis Fighter gets then? Right. So now instead of being -1 on everything but Combat Challenge (which is a lot of attacks for a standard Fighter... Come and Get It Alone in many fights is more attacks then CC will generate in many standard fights) they're not -1 on anything and get a definitive bonus for being a Dwarf.

Str/Con > 18 Str, 15 Con, 16 Wis. Qualifies for everything (Including Plate, Plate Spec and Axe Mastery). That makes Dwarves definitively better for Str/Wis Fighters and Str/Con Fighters. Which I said.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ok, you have now 1 more point in wisdom. Congratulations.

Con/wis -> 18 Str, 15 Con, 15 Wis.

You actually proved that a dwarf is now imbalanced 50% of his levels. He is only imbalanced at the other 50% when you say that he was overpowered before...

So, the dwarf went from default choice to default choice?

Yes, a dwarven fighter was very powerful before. A very good choice indeed. I just don´t get, why you can´t play a human fighter and be ok with it... (except you want to say he was underpowered before...)

So nothing has dramatically changed...

the most funny thing is: now your dwarf is equally good at attacks as the former dwarf, except for combat challenge and superiority where he now hits better by 1 point.

Did I say: congratulations for optimizing!

 

[Aulirophile]

Ok, you have now 1 more point in wisdom. Congratulations.

Con/wis -> 18 Str, 15 Con, 15 Wis.

You actually proved that a dwarf is now imbalanced 50% of his levels. He is only imbalanced at the other 50% when you say that he was overpowered before...

So, the dwarf went from default choice to default choice?

Yes, a dwarven fighter was very powerful before. A very good choice indeed. I just don´t get, why you can´t play a human fighter and be ok with it... (except you want to say he was underpowered before...)

So nothing has dramatically changed...

the most funny thing is: now your dwarf is equally good at attacks as the former dwarf, except for combat challenge and superiority where he now hits better by 1 point.

Did I say: congratulations for optimizing!

...Ugh, Dwarf was one of 3 choices before that was the best. This puts him ahead of the other two choices that used to be competitive. Human isn't even on the list.

It isn't imbalanced, I never said that. I said the change was retarded because Dwarves already have so many advantages that taking away their only disadvantage is stupid, and means that for any practical optimization they are the only race that is even going to be looked at. Which is, again, true.

 

[keterys]

I think we already saw all these problems when we had a Con primary (Battlemind) class, and could extend it slightly to some others like the new Warpriest (Wis), maybe Avengers, eh. Dealing with it by extending the problem to also include Str primary? Sure, whatever. If the feats are broken, fix those.

 

[scylis]

The difference in power is still (technically "is going to be") nowhere near as big as you are making it seem, Aulirophile. Dwarves that get +2 STR and CON are NOT so much more powerful that they're suddenly the automatic choice if you want to play a STR-based defender to the point where no one will ever pick anything else.

Period.

 

[TarionzCousin]

6. Because of 1 and 2, humans are easily the kings of hybrid class builds.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[Aulirophile]

The difference in power is still (technically "is going to be") nowhere near as big as you are making it seem, Aulirophile. Dwarves that get +2 STR and CON are NOT so much more powerful that they're suddenly the automatic choice if you want to play a STR-based defender to the point where no one will ever pick anything else.

Period.

Yes, it is. The difference is big enough that anyone who is optimizing, and I really need to point that out because of course people who don't care or don't know any better will still play other races (wonder where we could find some of those), will always pick Dwarf. Dwarves had one disadvantage from being the go-to choice for Str/Wis (I concede, you actually need to make use of the Con, so Fighter have to get Plate... gee darn) and Str/Con classes (and Con/Wis, Wrath Invoker had Dwarf as a Gold option. Gee, when the stats line up, Dwarves are a Gold choice... funny, that seems somehow relevant), that disadvantage no longer exists.

So, to recap: Top tier choice with one of the most serious disadvantages, accuracy on attacks taken during your turn. Serious disadvantage: Gone. Other things: Unchanged. What do you call something that was almost a default choice that got better? The default choice.

And, again, this only applies from an optimization perspective. I don't care what unoptimal builds people want to trot out and say they are going to play, that doesn't prove anything.

 

[FireLance]

Certain: Dwarves can be Str/Con or Con/Wis.
Certain: They can function better in Str/Con classes.

Uncertain: They may function better in Str/Wis classes, but there is still a trade-off between increasing Str and increasing Wis.

Opinion: The difference between a dwarf and a character of any other race in a Str-based defender class is so large that anyone who is optimizing will choose to play a dwarf.
Opinion: IMO, it really depends on what you are optimizing for. The trade-off between complete racial packages (including ability score bonuses, racial abilities and feats) is not always that clear-cut and precise.