Race Character Optimisation: Just Choose Dwarf

[DracoSuave]

If you are melee, dwarves are a great choice. If you are a caster, they seldom are. Humans are great for both sides. Granted, it takes a while for humans to come into their own, they need to get a few class feats usually before they start taking their great human feats. I usually cannot get action surge till 8th or so.

The thing is, the human bonus feat made it 8th level rather than 10th level!

Humans are still one of the best races in the game, having -exactly- the stat you need while having an additional at-will, means that unless you're the sort who goes 'Ranger, Twin-Strike, and can I take a second Twin-Strike cause I'll never use another power ever' gives you an extremely effective tactical advantage.

I mean, yeah, your secondary is two points lower, but seriously... it's your secondary. It's far less important than people give it credit for.

 

[Aulirophile]

Wrong. They can still have the third at will as stated today on WotC website. Also humans can do with lower con and one less surge, as they have 3 defenses higher than the dwarf on a Strength/Con build...

Actually without the compensating + NAD features (which most(all) races get with stat bonuses which increase the same NAD), dwarven fighters may need to shrug off conditions and damage the human hasn´t recieved at all...

Turns to Die Calculator still puts Dwarves ahead for having -1 to all NADs compared to humans, sorry. One surge is a ton of HP, incidentally, especially for a Con secondary build.

 

[scylis]

The thing is, the human bonus feat made it 8th level rather than 10th level!

Humans are still one of the best races in the game, having -exactly- the stat you need while having an additional at-will, means that unless you're the sort who goes 'Ranger, Twin-Strike, and can I take a second Twin-Strike cause I'll never use another power ever' gives you an extremely effective tactical advantage.

I mean, yeah, your secondary is two points lower, but seriously... it's your secondary. It's far less important than people give it credit for.

I said something similar over at the WotC boards, but stuff like this makes me scratch my head at people saying how humans are so bad off. Really? Then why are they almost always a sky blue choices in almost every class guide I've come across (that uses that rating convention, anyway)?

I mean, sure, they may not be the absolute best and most optimized choice for a class, but they're almost as good a choice for every class. That's their schtick: you can't go wrong with choosing a human. How many races can say that? And we've already gone over their own particular bonuses and nifty racial feats.

 

[keterys]

One surge is a near meaningless amount of HP when we're talking about the 13th+ surge, in my experience.

Useful for healing someone else in a battle standard, but rarely useful otherwise. You're stopping when the 7 surge person runs out, not when the 16 surge dwarf does.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One surge is a near meaningless amount of HP when we're talking about the 13th+ surge, in my experience.

Useful for healing someone else in a battle standard, but rarely useful otherwise. You're stopping when the 7 surge person runs out, not when the 16 surge dwarf does.

Except the 16 surge dwarf (there's one in my party, absolutely scary even with CON/WIS) will get out there and suck up hits so that by the time the 7 surge wizard is ready to head back he'll definitely be able to get down close to zero himself.

Also note that the dwarf does NOT have 3 lower NADs than the human. Humans lose a point of defense because they have a lower by 2 secondary. And lets not kid ourselves, Stand Your Ground KICKS. Dwarven Resilience KICKS, even the +5 vs Poisons is pretty nice, there are a lot of nasty poison attacks out there. The speed penalty is virtually irrelevant since you always wear scale armor.

Use FWT, put an Execution Axe in his hands, nice. Take DWT, then go for Potent Challenge. NOBODY wants to defy your mark, no way no how. You can always go Dreadnought at 11th level. Forget anyone getting effects to stick on you. Pick up Timely Respite for added saving power.

 

[Jools]

This change takes the Dwarf from top tier Sky Blue, to Gold. There is no mechanical reason, ever, to play a Str/Con Warden who is not a Dwarf with this change. Ditto a lot of Fighter builds. Str/Con Runepriest, ditto. Dwarves have the best feat support of any race barring maybe, maybe, Eladrin.

I couldn't agree more, and the power difference between dwarf wardens and any other warden in the game now is hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. They were the best choice before, now you'd be crazy not to pick one.

And for the record, let it be said that humans ARE excellent. They excel at many classes; you could easily argue they're the second best race in the game. Not quite as good as the best race though: the dwarf.

 

[scylis]

Yes, we get that Dwarves are going to be a little better at being most types of Fighters than humans. Or any other class that gets good mileage out of CON and (STR or WIS).

But how are their Wizards in comparison? Their Psions? What about their Rogues? Sorcerers? Other classes that don't have STR, CON, or WIS as a primary? Or even ones that do have one as a primary, but neither of the others as secondaries?

Dwarves are great, yes, and when they shine, they really shine. But they don't shine all the time. So I really don't think that the best default choice for every class is going to suddenly become Dwarf now that they're going to be able to choose between a +2 to STR or WIS, which is what the title is suggesting.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, we get that Dwarves are going to be a little better at being most types of Fighters than humans. Or any other class that gets good mileage out of CON and (STR or WIS).

But how are their Wizards in comparison? Their Psions? What about their Rogues? Sorcerers? Other classes that don't have STR, CON, or WIS as a primary? Or even ones that do have one as a primary, but neither of the others as secondaries?

Dwarves are great, yes, and when they shine, they really shine. But they don't shine all the time. So I really don't think that the best default choice for every class is going to suddenly become Dwarf now that they're going to be able to choose between a +2 to STR or WIS, which is what the title is suggesting.

I think you're missing the point. The overall point is that flex stat bonuses have just put certain races so clearly ahead at certain classes that the difference between first and second choice is pretty clear.

So what did this 'flex' stats thing achieve? It made several races clear winners, increased the general level of power of the best race/class combinations and so it is now even MORE likely that those combos will be almost defaults.

It also doesn't matter WHO is second best. Humans being second best at every class isn't anything to write home about when every time you play one you're doing so at the loss of playing a dwarf, an elf, an eladrin, a deva, etc. SURE people WILL play humans, they'll play dragonborn, etc. They will just play some of these races LESS and only for specific classes to a greater degree.

So I fail to understand what this change was supposed to achieve. There was good diversity and lots of fun choices before. Now all the slightly off choices are just that much further behind the curve. At the VERY BEST things all come out in the wash and every race gained as much as it lost, BIG WHOOPEEE.

 

[scylis]

I think you're missing the point. The overall point is that flex stat bonuses have just put certain races so clearly ahead at certain classes that the difference between first and second choice is pretty clear.

So what did this 'flex' stats thing achieve? It made several races clear winners, increased the general level of power of the best race/class combinations and so it is now even MORE likely that those combos will be almost defaults.

It also doesn't matter WHO is second best. Humans being second best at every class isn't anything to write home about when every time you play one you're doing so at the loss of playing a dwarf, an elf, an eladrin, a deva, etc. SURE people WILL play humans, they'll play dragonborn, etc. They will just play some of these races LESS and only for specific classes to a greater degree.

So I fail to understand what this change was supposed to achieve. There was good diversity and lots of fun choices before. Now all the slightly off choices are just that much further behind the curve. At the VERY BEST things all come out in the wash and every race gained as much as it lost, BIG WHOOPEEE.

You make it sound as if the differences are suddenly huge when they weren't before, though. They're not. And the only people I can really see who are overly affected by this are those who are only going to choose the race/class combo that is (by often tiny percents) the best for the class they're wanting to play.

I just don't see the big deal. All I see are people making mountains out of molehills.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Turns to Die Calculator still puts Dwarves ahead for having -1 to all NADs compared to humans, sorry. One surge is a ton of HP, incidentally, especially for a Con secondary build.

1. Its some more hp over a complete day.

2. HP loss ove NADs often come with status effects (a daze and inor action second wind doesn´t help anymore)

3. Some hp don´t make or break a character...

@abdulalhazred: of course 3 lower NADs: fighter's fort: strength, ref: dex or int, will: wisdom. Constitution (your secondary plays no role here at all)

@ Humans only second best n every class... maybe dwarves are slightly better fighters... i remember times when dwarves were always a lot better fighters, and humans offered nothing at all. Differences now are only very very small.

Also there are fighters out there with dexterity secondary... Dwarves can now better fill that role too. I am worried more about those kind of fighters... but they lose the benefit of weapon training here, so whatever.