Races and Classes cover on Amazon!

[BASHMAN]

$20? Twenty dollars? For a preview? For information that will be all over the message boards here, at WotC, and at RPG.net in about twelve seconds after it's released?

Granted, twenty American dollars isn't worth what it used to be worth, but damn. I'll give you $5 for postage, $6 if you throw in some stickers or something.

When 3.0 came out, it was $20 for each of the core rule books. Just as a point of reference for this "preview". I imagine that the 4e PhB will be closer to $40. What the market will bear I suppose....

That said, I certainly don't advocate piracy, even if I disagree w/ the price/product/whatever. Unless these things are going to be shrinkwrapped, you'll be able to go into your local bookstore or FLGS and flip through it to your heart's content before you decide to buy. Even if you don't, you can always look at the copy your friend decided to buy. If none of your friends have a copy, make new friends. There are plenty of options that make stealing the book irrational as well as unethical.

 

[No Name]

The point I took was: what can we do and/or communicate about this book that might turn attitudes?

The truth.

My thoughts from SteveC's comments are: Can we position the book differently, have we explained what the book sis all about well enough? What can we do to get people exicted about the book? to name a few.

I get the impression that this book (and a few others between now and the 4e release) are "filler". I get a bit incensed when I'm asked to tell where the chink in my armor is so I'll buy something I likely neither want nor have a use for. Just let the book stand as it is. I'll make the decision to buy or not after having looked through it.

Or you can appeal to my humanity. Get Sally Struthers to give a soulful speech about how a mere $20 a month can help feed a WotC staffer.

Btw, that "appeal to my humanity" bit is the truth. I won't buy dross for any price, but if you guys are worried about the 6 month famine until the 4e feast, then just say so. I don't buy Eberron or FR stuff, but I'm willing to make exceptions until next summer.

 

[Oldtimer]

And because you think it's overpriced, that makes it OK to steal it?

Copying is not stealing. Don't confuse a serious issue.

I'm not a moderator, but this piracy discussion could easily get out of hand, so we might want to reduce it to "would I buy the preview books for $20 each or just read a friends copy?"

 

[JoeGKushner]

1-3 is pretty spot on. It is becoming apparent that our positioning of the books is off and we need to demonstrate why we think the books are worth picking up.

For the price point, one of the things I'm wondering about is how much of this material is new art? One of the annoying things about the FR history book and the Rules Compendium is the heavy reuse of art with a price break only on the former.

I hate being double dipped and art is a huge part of the equation of why I enjoy RPG books and the premium prices we're paying on these books better not be for art that's going to be immediately recycled.

What's exclusive about these books?

 

[Henry]

I'm not a moderator, but this piracy discussion could easily get out of hand, so we might want to reduce it to "would I buy the preview books for $20 each or just read a friends copy?"

We're like Devils - whisper our names, and we appear.

This is pretty much my thoughts on this too. I hate "steering" a thread, but I'd rather this didn't become a huge blown-out discussion of piracy, because those tend to make a thread go down in flames. We don't advocate it here, and anyone who starts sharing the "how-tos" gets a quick trip to the permaban list, but then we also have a pretty savvy audience who gets that.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

For the price point, one of the things I'm wondering about is how much of this material is new art? One of the annoying things about the FR history book and the Rules Compendium is the heavy reuse of art with a price break only on the former.

I hate being double dipped and art is a huge part of the equation of why I enjoy RPG books and the premium prices we're paying on these books better not be for art that's going to be immediately recycled.

Add me to the "not amused by this trend" list -- particularly when compounded by editting errors that put pictures of warforged in a book on the Forgotten Realms. I did buy Grand History, because it has use for future FR campaigns ... and the two-three art edittign gaffes really made me grind my teeth.

I'm also not getting the "preview" books. New art is cool, but I'm not so much of an art fan that I drop $20 on a book just for the art. Heck, I don't drop $20 on a hardcover novel (with rare exceptions) because the use time-to-dollar ratio is too small. A 96-page softcover one-time use product -- no way I'm paying $20. Under $10, maybe. I'll pay ~$12 for a 96-page softcover adventure, but most adventures are about a 2-3 time use product for me (once reading for fun, once studying and using in game, once re-using years later). A 96-page softcover one-time-use product sounds like a magazine, minus advertising. In size, print quality, and art content this is about the same as Paizo's Pathfinder ... and I see a lot more utility in Pathfinder.

The content is the real question. If it's just fluff on the races and classes, well, that will have to be repeated (for the most part) in the PHB -- at least enough so you can use them -- and the PHB will have game mechanics, so it's useful at the gaming table. As a gamer, what interests me most in a preview product is seeing how the mechanics have changed, and learning the reasoning behind the mechanical changes. But since the planned preview books won't include mechanics ... then, why? And you could have sidebars and essays from the designers taking about changes, but without the mechanics it devolves into "this is really cool, but you'll have to trust me" or "this is what was broken in 3E", neither of which is particularly helpful.

Sure, you'll sell a lot of them to people who aren't hardcore D&Ders, and it will raise some brand awareness and advertise the upcoming release of 4E. But right now they look mostly like a way to fill some empty space in the print schedule since a 3.5 book won't sell and you can't release the 4E mechanics yet. Which leaves the customer to pay an excessive amount to be advertised to.

 

[Henry]

From my perspective, this raises two really good questions about the product, both which fuel my indifference to it.

1) It is perceived to be a "preview" product. For 20 bucks, that's two-thirds of the way to a full-on game book, and a preview product really doesn't hold that kind of value to me. Even TV guides are only priced for three or four dollars. (I'm joking, but only partially.)

2) Are the essays and information going to tell us anything substantial we don't already know? I'm not talking as far as a full-on class preview or anything, but even to the extent of an overview of what a character will have available? If I were talking in 3E terms, I could say that a character has feats to give him things to do, like improving my initiative, or attacking one opponent and running away before he could get a swing on me; the character has skills in things like intimidate, or bluff, or tumble; the character has abilities like raging for huge strength and con gains, bu for short times, or the ability to lay on hands, but to choose exactly how much healing to dispense, etc.

In 4E terms, might we get a sense of some of the powers available to a specific class, or some of the new feats, anything like that? Or will the essays be generalities in the direction that 4E will take on things such as save-or-die, magic item proliferations, etc.

If it's lots of generalities, Then that's what makes it less worth it to me.

As for modules and novels being "one use only", I also disagree. I've gotten dozens of reuses out of most of the modules I own, by using its parts elsewhere, and as someone else said I pass my novels on to others in my gaming group, or to family.

 

[Umbran]

Doesn't this hold true for other one time use products? Adventures and novels come to mind as something you may only use once and then be done with it. Does this justify stealing them?

Violating copyright is not justified here, certainly.

But remember - with a module or novel, we may typically get multiple uses out of it - I reread novels, and may run an adventure for several different groups. Or, even more likely, I can mine either for ideas for games multiple times.

By description, Scott, these products don't rank there. They don't sound like they are "one use" - they sound like they are "zero use", in that we wouldn't actually use them in a game. If they are, as you say, more than just marketing, then they have some actual use to a gamer, yes?

So, like others, I'll ask - why do we want to buy these things? What is their value to us?

 

[Doc_Klueless]

The only change I'd like to see in the cover is the banner in the lower right corner moved to the upper left corner. Really give it that old school feel.

Other than that, I think I'm part of the target audience. New, shiny, easily acquired. My disposable income, as it now stands, is way enough that I won't even notice the 13 bucks it cost me on Amazon.

I admit that I'm easily captured by things that are shiny.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

OK Scott, I'm game.

Tell me why I would want to pay $20.00 plus tax for this book in my FLGS, or $13.57 on Amazon.com. The same goes for all the preview/advertisement books.

Or, hypothetically, tell me why a potential customer's intelligence shouldn't be insulted at what they might perceive as a cash-grab.

In this instance, why would a potential customer want to own the hard copy of this book instead of skimming a downloaded .pdf file?

Would this potential customer even keep the .pdf on their computer or delete it immediately out of disinterest?

How does this product affect the good will of the customer base, whether purchased, pirated or both?