Races and Classes cover on Amazon!

[Scott_Rouse]

Why would anyone buy a pirated book when they can get the pirated book for free on the internet? And I am not advocating piracy for all RPG books, just ones that exist as an overpriced preview material of something that will be quickly leaked once it has been released. It is preview material. I do not want to pay for this material just so I can pay for the same material again in 2008. I have my e-book and hard copy RPG purchases, so I do not like to be lectured about piracy.

You are advocating piracy and that ticks me off. You are trying to justify stealing because you think something is over priced. Look if you don't want to buy the book then don't. You need to make the determination if it is worth it to you. I suspect it is not worth it to you at any price. But the fact of the matter is that the book cost us money to make and we have to charge a price for it. That price happens to be $20 (or what ever stores decide to charge for it).

Then it seems as if you need to work harder, because there is real no reason to buy except to be the first guy who tells the boards all the details in it.

So do you get pirated copies of other books that people post info about on the web? The D20 SRD free on the web is almost a v3.5 PHB. Does this justify getting a ripped copy of the PHB?

And this is why paying $20 for the preview material simply is not worth it.

If it is not worth it to you then don't buy it and please don't steal it.

 

[SteveC]

I am somewhat startled that SteveC's thoughts on the subject are being considered novel in this way. I would have thought that you guys would already know exactly how something like this would be received, especially given the comments that followed the initial announcement of these books, and which appear each time the books are mentioned.

I'd like to piggyback on this, because I think the situation is a little more complicated than is immediately evident. If I had to guess, I imagine the idea for these products went like this:

1. "We need some products between the announcement of 4E and the launch. Most likely 3X material is not going to sell so well with the new edition coming out, and most of our design/editing/playtesting staff are all working on 4E."

2. "Hey we have a huge amount of concept artwork for the new edition. We're going to rework a lot of the core concepts, and the art department has a huge amount of great material that will never really see the light of day. We can put that together and sell it as a 'visual companion.' Heck we can get some non gamers to pick it up based on the art."

3. "Cool! It also serves as a preview of what we're doing with 4E."

Up until step three, that's a good pitch that works. It's when you start talking about making it a preview that people get testy, because they think "ah, that's just stuff that's we would normally see on the website!"

I don't know what's going to be in these books, but I would hope that they're filled with stuff that went into the creation of the game that would never ordinarily see the light of day. I'd hope that's the case.

As an example, I have a good friend who is an outstanding artist, and he worked for a small press roleplaying company years ago doing character and monster art. He did about 20 pieces for them...mostly black and white inks, and they ended up using (being able to afford, rather) about three of them. The rest of it just ended up sitting around until he slowly sold it off. I am assuming there is a ton of art that we are never going to see for 4E--character sketches, roughs and so on. Is this what they're showing us in the final product? If so, that's interesting to me on a purely visual level, just like the other Visual Companions I've purchased are.

If, and I hope this isn't the case, what the book is made up of is largely preview materials that you'd actually expect to see online, I really don't know what to say about it.

I am hoping that's not the case.

--Steve

 

[Reaper Steve]

William O'Connor

Thanks for the info.

As to the discussion about how to posture this book, since many don't want to pay for previews:
I for one (the only one, it seems ) am happy to have the opportunity to purchase this product.
For those that refuse to pay for previews, I think WotC needs to sell this book to them by explaining why this book will be valuable even after the core books are released.
Where do I see the value?
1) It's a professional, high-quality, tangible book
2) It's lavishly illustrated (that tells me there will be lots of art I will want to look at)
3) It is a 4E preview...5 months early. 96 pages of it. Is someone going to post the race list and class list as soon as they get it? You bet. But this is 96 pages worth of reading, someone won't retype all that.
4) It will have lots of design commentary, which will be very insightful.

I wouldn't go as far as SteveC suggests, as that is the opposite end of the spectrum. 'Oh look, now they won't even acknowledge that this book is just a bunch of previews.'

To those that abhor the thought of this book: If none of this excites you, you aren't the target. Not every single product has to appeal to every player. Do you want the info in Dec? Then skip a movie and buy the book. Not worth the money to you? Fair enough, but don't get upset about it.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Well, the big problem is that we have here a "disposable" book rather than a reference book. Once you read it once, it isn't really useful for anything anymore. This is in sharp contrast to other rulebooks such as the PHB, DMG and MM, which you need to keep around for reference. Thus, the temptation to pirate that book (not that I approve of course), is going to be very strong.

Doesn't this hold true for other one time use products? Adventures and novels come to mind as something you may only use once and then be done with it. Does this justify stealing them?

Even if the book is going to be used to explain the designer's goals, methods, or philosophies in designing the new edition, isn't that what you want for marketing this product? I can't understand the marketing strategy of the new edition. Why is WotC only marketing to 2-5% of their fanbase? You are basically only spreading information about the new edition to those people who are willing to sign up for a Gleemax account (or regularly check the WotC website for that matter. Subscription based content is fine after 4e is launched, but it is a horrible way to generate buzz.


The vast majority of your audience doesn't check the D&D website every week or so, or participate in RPG forums. Heck, the vast majority of your audience doesn't play D&D as often as they'd like (like my D&D games which have been on hiatus since I had a daughter in July). How are you going to bring them back to the table (much less attract new players) if they have to come to the website, sign in to D&D Insider, and spend $40 just to receive the marketing?

It defies all common sense.

These are two products with info on 4e that actually reach people that may not be connected to the net. They are more than just marketing , they are products and I think people will but them when they see them

Anything done to this date does not represent the entirety of our marketing efforts. The product release is 8 months away and our marketing efforts are just getting started. We will spend a significant amount of money on events, in-store demo materials, advertising, public relations etc in the next 14 months.

Gleemax and D&D Insider are free. There is not cost to sign up for either of these so I don't see how you equate the web articles as subscription based service. On top of that EN World and similar sites seem to be doing a pretty awesome job of marketing 4e as well.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

I'd like to piggyback on this, because I think the situation is a little more complicated than is immediately evident. If I had to guess, I imagine the idea for these products went like this:

1. "We need some products between the announcement of 4E and the launch. Most likely 3X material is not going to sell so well with the new edition coming out, and most of our design/editing/playtesting staff are all working on 4E."

2. "Hey we have a huge amount of concept artwork for the new edition. We're going to rework a lot of the core concepts, and the art department has a huge amount of great material that will never really see the light of day. We can put that together and sell it as a 'visual companion.' Heck we can get some non gamers to pick it up based on the art."

3. "Cool! It also serves as a preview of what we're doing with 4E."

Up until step three, that's a good pitch that works. It's when you start talking about making it a preview that people get testy, because they think "ah, that's just stuff that's we would normally see on the website!"

I don't know what's going to be in these books, but I would hope that they're filled with stuff that went into the creation of the game that would never ordinarily see the light of day. I'd hope that's the case.

As an example, I have a good friend who is an outstanding artist, and he worked for a small press roleplaying company years ago doing character and monster art. He did about 20 pieces for them...mostly black and white inks, and they ended up using (being able to afford, rather) about three of them. The rest of it just ended up sitting around until he slowly sold it off. I am assuming there is a ton of art that we are never going to see for 4E--character sketches, roughs and so on. Is this what they're showing us in the final product? If so, that's interesting to me on a purely visual level, just like the other Visual Companions I've purchased are.

If, and I hope this isn't the case, what the book is made up of is largely preview materials that you'd actually expect to see online, I really don't know what to say about it.

I am hoping that's not the case.

--Steve

1-3 is pretty spot on. It is becoming apparent that our positioning of the books is off and we need to demonstrate why we think the books are worth picking up.

 

[Aldarc]

You are advocating piracy and that ticks me off. You are trying to justify stealing because you think something is over priced. Look if you don't want to buy the book then don't. You need to make the determination if it is worth it to you. I suspect it is not worth it to you at any price. But the fact of the matter is that the book cost us money to make and we have to charge a price for it. That price happens to be $20 (or what ever stores decide to charge for it).

Well why did you bother to make the book at all?

So do you get pirated copies of other books that people post info about on the web?

I do not pirate the rest of my RPG books. But if it is just a preview of something that I will have to buy again, then yes.

The D20 SRD free on the web is almost a v3.5 PHB. Does this justify getting a ripped copy of the PHB?

Well I did not buy or pirate the v3.5 PHB because the SRD was on the web.

If it is not worth it to you hen don't buy it.

This is kind of what piracy is. But I probably will not buy it or pirate it, since as it has already been said, the informational material contained in this book will be reported on the web not long after it has been released, so there is little point buying it or taking the effort for piracy.

 

[Cam Banks]

MWP has a product, something of a fast-play/light version/intro package, for the Battlestar Galactica RPG called the Battlestar Galactica Quickstart. It's priced at $10 for the hardcopy, and we've sold a heck of a lot of them, but there were people who didn't like that we were selling what they considered to be "preview material" or the sort of thing some companies handed out for free. One of the most amusing comments I remember from these folks was: "I would buy it if it were free."

As a designer/writer who has had his own books scanned and thrown onto peer-to-peer networks before, I find the glib advocation of piracy to be reprehensible and ignorant. Some people suggest that "these people weren't going to buy the book anyway so you wouldn't have sold it to them," which is specious logic. I'm always left wondering what motivates the guy who scans the book in and distributes it, since he's clearly bought a copy himself.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Andor]

The point I took was: what can we do and/or communicate about this book that might turn attitudes? I have to admit that sometimes we get too close to a product and because we have "insider" knowledge of the product we forget that the people buying the books need to get more of the "insiders " information.

My thoughts from SteveC's comments are: Can we position the book differently, have we explained what the book sis all about well enough? What can we do to get people exicted about the book? to name a few.

Explain to me of what the use of the books will be.

An RPG product is a fun way to spend my time both in the reading of it, and in employing it to play a game. A large portion of the fun of reading an RPG book comes from the ideas sparked off by it in the form of thoughts of "How can I use this to craft entertaining stories as a GM or player?"

So do these apply to a preview book? Not really. I can get some vauge meta-gamey ideas of what sort of stories I may kinda be able to tell... maybe. But no more so than I would get by paying half the price for 3 times the page count from the SF shelves of my local book store. And can I play the game with it? No. It's a preview afterall, not a complete system.

So it's not really an RPG product. Nor is it fiction. It's a bit of interest in an upcoming product, but as a modern consumer I'm perfectly well aware that you are asking me to pay $20 in order to be advertised to. Yippe. Would you go to a cinema that charged $20 to watch 90 minutes of trailers?

Look, if it's going to be a 96 page softcover then just print it up in magazine format and charge $5. Heck I'll pay that just for a playbill at a theatre. But $20? That's 3 paperbacks and a cup of coffee worth of my dough, in order to get advertised at.

Doesn't this hold true for other one time use products? Adventures and novels come to mind as something you may only use once and then be done with it. Does this justify stealing them?

It's not at all true that either adventures or novels are single use. I often loan out my novels to friends in order to discuss them later, and I will reread them after a couple of years. And I've run one adventure 3 different times (with different groups.) And even if I'm not rerunning the adventure they can pften be mined for locations or NPCs etc.

But a preview? Utterly and completely obsolete the second the actual game hits the shelves.

Unless there is something in that book that will prove to be of lasting value to me, I'd rather you printed it on newsprint and sold it for pocket change.

 

[Andor]

I would rather a mediocre book not sell than be acquired via piracy.

You know... I'm not an advocate of piracy but I think your attitude there is poorly thought out. Modern consumers are pretty savvy. We're aware that the people who make the things we like need to eat, and we know our role as consumers is to support people who make things we like. This is why both the Baen books free bar and the many 'pay whatever you want' music downloads are viable forms of enterprise in todays world, not to mention the many webcomics who make a living off of the donations of fans who pay whatever they feel the entertainment they received is worth.

So the majority of 'pirates' (IMHO) are downloading a book for one of 4 reasons.

1) They like to 'beat the system' or 'stick it to the man'. These are uneducated consumers, or maybe they just have no idea how crappily the RPG industry pays but in any event you're unlikely to see their money, whether or not they download the books.

2) They want to examine the material to see if it's worth buying. You'll be getting your money from these people if your product is worth it.

3) They bought the book, and want a digital copy to keep on their laptop. And why not? You have their money.

4) They want the book but don't feel it's worth what you charge for it. IOW it's poorly price pointed. But you should still rather they 'pirate' it then not have it at all, because their use of it may drive others in their group to purchase it, or at worst it's driving interest in further products of yours and your core products in exactly the same way that 3rd party products do drive sales of your core books. It's the same principle behind the SRD and OGL in the first place. Heck it's probable that if you put a link on your website that said "Downloaded pirated books? Click here to anonymously pay whatever you think they were worth." you'd see a significant revenue stream from it as people paid the 5 or 10 the think a book was worth rather than the 25-40$ it was retail.

 

[GSHamster]

So what exactly is this book? Is it like those "Countdown to 3E" Dragon articles? Or is it a book of artwork?

Count me in on the side of people who don't really understand this product.