Races and design goals

[EUBanana]

The hates melee, while my personal belief, was a bit sensational for the OP and not the primary focus of this thread. Debate whether they hate melee, or whether this is a reason or example of it, somewhere else, please. I am mainly interested in discussing the dearth of +str races.

I don't think it's really deliberate, more tradition. The standard D&D races have been elf, dwarf and halfling from time immemorial pretty much. Their stat modifiers have changed very little, even from back in the OD&D days - and strength isn't on there.

And elf/dwarf/hobbit go back to Tolkien. Maybe if there was a half-giant in the Fellowship of the Ring there would be a standard, common, high strength race in D&D and its derivatives.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Tolkein also had orcs and the like. And I don't necessarily expect any of the "player races" to cater to a particular stat. But for none of the bestiary races, either? I don't think "big strong people" is a particularly difficult concept to portray.

 

[gamerprinter]

The hates melee, while my personal belief, was a bit sensational for the OP and not the primary focus of this thread. Debate whether they hate melee, or whether this is a reason or example of it, somewhere else, please. I am mainly interested in discussing the dearth of +str races.

That's fine. I have no idea why Paizo has not provided any/more +Str bonus based monster PC races - I just don't know, so I can't argue from a position of ignorance.

Your OP, included the "Paizo hates melee" opinion, which is the only thing I can respond - which I did.

 

[EUBanana]

Tolkein also had orcs and the like.

So did OD&D - as antagonists, not as player characters, though.

I suppose you can argue why, but it's nevertheless the way it is - fantasy games have the holy three demihumans + humans and thats it, usually.

I don't think "big strong people" is a particularly difficult concept to portray.

There have been some mould-breakers, like trolls in Shadowrun or half-giants in Dark Sun, but they aren't the 'standard three'.

 

[billd91]

1. Stats are certainly the largest part of race choice, and a lack of a strength bonus definitely makes a race less than optimal as a fighter (unless said race has +8 Con, +8 Dex, +8 Will, and three 1d12 natural attacks).

Stats are the largest part of race choice? I'm not so sure about that. If I want to play a dwarf, I'm going to play a dwarf regardless of the stat modifiers involved. Plus, whether I'm rolling or doing point buy, I am usually able to put the best stat wherever I want it. So I'm really not at all convinced that stats are the largest part of race choice.

 

[Systole]

Stats are the largest part of race choice? I'm not so sure about that. If I want to play a dwarf, I'm going to play a dwarf regardless of the stat modifiers involved. Plus, whether I'm rolling or doing point buy, I am usually able to put the best stat wherever I want it. So I'm really not at all convinced that stats are the largest part of race choice.

Insofar as race choice applies to optimizing (or insert non-offensive verb here, if you don't like the word "optimizing") class roles, I stand by what I said. If you want to play a dwarf sorcerer, then go ahead and play a dwarf sorcerer -- that's a perfectly fine RP choice, as far as I'm concerned. But if you're arguing that dwarves make better and more effective sorcerers than gnomes or aasimars, then we have a problem.

 

[gamerprinter]

While stats are important, I feel the racial traits are the defining characteristics that differentiate one race from another - and elements that equally define whether a race is melee or caster based, as much as stats, but not stats alone.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

But we're talking about Bestiary races. I'm sure you'll agree, the majority of them are extremely sparse on racial traits compared to dwarves, elves, etc...?

 

[gamerprinter]

Sure, but I guess this discussion ought to wait until Paizo's Race book is released next spring. (Not to stop you from speculating now, but without known and available racial traits, its difficult to judge now, just which races are more martially adept than others, despite current stat-bonuses.)