Races of Faerun +level inconsistencies and potential errata?!

[Falconer]

No No No No.. you misunderstood me. My comments were more of I tend to evaluate things more strictly from a wargaming balance perspective and less from RPG standpoint.

The 'nerfing' I speak of is a matter of a fighter w/ power combo feats/skills and similar. The good old one trick pony type deals. Not that tricks of the trade aren't to be used... just I think 3E is a bit more on the powergamer side than earlier editions. I prefer less powerfull PC's and NPC's in my games. So I tend to restrict a bit more while at the same time allowing them to play things a bit more freeform.

In my experience this also prevents one player from overdominating.

In a wargame, strict rules are necessary as there is no GM/DM and rarely a rules judge. The rules must be balanced to present a good balanced game.

In a RPG, the point of the DM is to arbitrate the game so that all have fun. The rules are more of a guide than the hard items they tend to be in a wargame. But w/ all the mini's rules and such I think D&D tried to go too much in that direction in the wargaming direction and didn't do it well.

 

[kreynolds]

... just I think 3E is a bit more on the powergamer side than earlier editions.

No, no, no. This is a common misunderstanding. 3rd edition isn't about powergaming at all. It's just that in 2nd edition, you couldn't do anything. At all. So, naturally, 3rd edition seems awfully high on the power side.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Theres a difference between "nerfing" your powers and playing up the racial bigotry of the people whose world you are traveling.

I don't say that the DM has to change the whole world as suddenly drow-friendly, only cause one PC happens to be a drow. But it's wrong to bring only undead and other crit-immune characters only because the rogues sneak attack would be powerful.

If you play a drow, with an ECL +2, you are a balanced character, 3e made sure of that. If you are a drow, you are going to be persecuted, hunted, hated, etc by the majority of humans or elves (or even dwarves) that you meet.

I think the drow's power is balanced with ECL +2, even without any RP hindrances. They're a bonus.

And it's not only the mjority of humans, elves and dwarves, it is pretty much all goodly races. On the other side, of cause, such a character is going to be feared as well. In fact, it's because of this feat that drow are hated and attacked on sight. But a character that isn't backed by the city guard will act much more friendly towards a drow. A drow's a bad diplomat, but a great bully!

If you don't like being hated, dont play an evil race, but don't interpret your dm's playing of peoples' reactions to you as "nerfing" you. Fey'ri and Drow represent the classic anti-hero, or possibly a redemption type character. Races are more than the stats that they are made up of.

Technik

Not all drow are evil. The worshipers of Eilistraee are usuall good or neutral at worst. And they don't have to redeem themselves from anything (well, some convertants might).

And not all fey'ri will be hated. For they won't flaunt their true nature. They'll make good use of their succubus-like ability to alter their form to any humanoid one they like. Openly showing what you are is deadly for a fey'ri, for they'll be attacked by the people around them and their own kin both then.

 

[Murrdox]

I admit that I also, upon first look, thought a lot of the races in Races of Faerun were a bit unbalanced as far as ECL goes. For example, the Aarakocra are SUCH a weak +2 I'm tempted to make them a +1 instead. I don't know WHAT your complaint is about Avariel being +3. I think they're perfect as they are. They shine in comparison to all the +2 ECL races. If it wasn't for the fact that we have a good balancer of what a +4 race is like (the Shade) then I'd say the Avariel were almost UNDERestimated as a 3.

But anyways, I got a reply from one of the writers on this balance issue, and he basically told me that the ECL balancing is a bit of an art, and not a science. Not all +2 ECL races are created completely equal, but generally speaking, they're better there than at +1 or +3.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Funny; I actually tend to think that drow would be balanced just fine at ECL +2 even if they were admired and lionized wherever they went. LA for 0-HD, non-fighter-oriented creatures is really, really disadvantageous in general, all the more so for races that have a Con penalty and have to blow a feat just to function properly in daylight!

As for the avariel: They suck. Terribly. Great RP opportunities, sure... if they could survive a single adventure.

The problem is simply that a 1st-level avariel character, for instance (don't even bother with the avariel cleric; giving ECL races caster classes as favored classes is just added cruelty) will have only 1 Hit Die, one feat, a single level's worth of skill points, +0 or +1 BAB, and piddling 1st-level abilities. An aasimar Pal3, OTOH, will have two feats, three levels worth of skill points, three times the hit points, and three levels worth of class abilities, in addition to special racial abilities. The avariel, by comparison, has the ability to fly. Is flight alone worth two character levels?

Now advance these characters to ECL 7. The avariel is now a 4th level character with 4 HD, BAB +2-+4, four levels worth of skill points, two feats, and four levels worth of class abilities. The aasimar has spent two of her feats on Celestial Bloodline and Outsider Wings. She has one feat (one fewer than the avariel), but 2 more HD and two levels worth of BAB, saves, and class abilities. Are two levels worth a single feat? I think not.

 

[Technik4]

True but:

Avariel could still fly faster.

Avariel still has better stats.

Avariel have better sight (ok, minor point)

Avariel have the dive bomb attack.

So lets see.

Level 6 Aasimar Paladin
Feats: 1st level feat, Celestial Bloodline, Outsider Wings
Powers: Flight 20 ft (in medium armor), Aasimar Resistances, Paladin Abilities (Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Aura of Courage, Smite Evil, Remove Disease 2/week, Turn Undead (as 4th level cleric), Special Mount), Outsider
BAB: +6/+1
Saves: 5/2/2 (+CHA)
HP: 6d10+CON
Stat Adjustment: +2 Wis, +2 Cha


Level 4 Avariel Paladin
Feats: Improved Flight (From Average to Perfect, see advantages in earlier post), 1 additional feat
Powers: Flight 50 ft (in medium armor), All elf abilities, Dive Attack, Paladin Abilities (Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Aura of Courage, Smite Evil, Remove Disease 1/week, Turn Undead (as 2nd level cleric), Native Elf
BAB: +4
Saves: 4/1/1 (+CHA)
HP: 4d10+CON
Stat Adjustment: +4 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis

The Aasimar has an advantage with respect to HD (which influences BAB, Saves, and HP), and Charisma, but if you compare the flying abilities they are woefully inept. Wouldve been better off buying some wings of flying from the Avariel Paladin

From a mobility standpoint the Avariel got his 2 levels worth and then some, the Aasimar will never be able to match the flight, not with 3 feats (assuming he also upgraded to Good Maneuverability), or even with the Rapid Flight feat (found on SKR's website, it is referenced in the Avariel feat choice) which gives a +20 flight speed bonus.

Whether its worth it depends on your game type and playing style. In a game of min/maxed powergamers running through a meatgrinder adventure, probably not. In average campaign, its probably worth it, in a high-roleplaying campaign you made out like a bandit because of roleplaying opportunities.

YMMV

Technik

 

[ruleslawyer]

You're forgetting the aasimar's light, protection from evil, and bless SLAs.

And I'll take the extra hit points, spells (forgot those, BTW) and BAB over the better flight ability any day. The point was that flight in general is a nifty ability, but not all it's cracked up to be.

Your point about flying magic items cuts both ways, BTW. The aasimar could just buy a pair of wings of flying, which he can easily afford at this level, and save himself the two feats if he'd like (although Celestial Bloodline is a very powerful feat, since it grants multiple SLAs).

 

[Murrdox]

I'm not sure why you guys are comparing races with several class levels attached to them.

I mean, since an Avariel is a +3 ECL, OBVIOUSLY he's not going to be as powerful a Paladin as an Aasimar. That's the trade-off you take when picking a +ECL race. Your class level isn't going to be as high as it would be normally. You're trading some levels for extra abilities.

First of all, IMHO, Aasimar's are VERY high end +1's, almost to the point of being +2. I've been tempted to house-rule them up to +2 many times. In my mind, their ability bonuses and spell like abilities are pretty powerful. However, if I made them a +2, they'd be a really LOW end +2... so that's why I keep them at +1, even though they're a bit over-powered.

Avariels get a net +6 to their base attributes. This is disgusting! This much of a bonus in and of itself warrents a +2 ECL, in my mind. When you add flight and their improved elf abilities to that, they become low-end +3.

Not all ECL races are exactly equal. You guys are silly to try and balance them out thinking that they should be.

 

[Technik4]

Ok, he can cast light and bless 1/day for 1min/level and prot from evil 3/day for 1min/level. Thats a couple 1st level spells and an orison. As for the paladin's spells? We're talking at most two 1st level paladin spells. So you can memorize CLW and Divine Favor (caster level: 3).

I think I outlined everything an aasimar gains except his spell like abilities (they are nice, but when you are fighting CR 7 stuff, its just no game breaking. Your action could be better spent than casting "Bless" or "Light", but prot from evil would still be handy).

The point is, if youre talking about flying, none of the races have anything on the avariel (well maybe the aarokocra, but they have their own issues) without magic items. Their feats just dont make it worthwhile enough, with ironically, the fey'ri coming in last when it comes to having wings and good mobility (poor maneuverability, ouch).

I agree that an aasimar who spends his dough on some wings or boots of flying will be nearly equal to an avariel with regards to flight. However, at lower levels that will mean a lot of extra gp for the avariel, while at high levels it becomes what it always is for +ECL races, a straight-up advantage.

My point was only to illustrate that while the Avariel are an ECL +3, if you are into flying, they are the best at it, hands down.

Technik

 

[ruleslawyer]

Right, and my point is that even if you figure in the flying ability, the avariel isn't powerful enough to justify ECL +3.

Spells and SLAs for fighter-type characters are a pretty big deal at low levels, technik. I wouldn't discount them so easily. I fully concede the fact that the avariel is a better flier than the aasimar, but my point is that better flight just ain't worth the BAB, saves, hp, and level-based goodies, plus the SLAs.

The reason we're comparing races with levels attached to them, Murrdox, is that you need to compare characters with equivalent ECLs in order to see whether ECL adjustments for given races are balanced. A 1st-level avariel PC should be better than a 1st-level aasimar PC, since the former PC's ECL is 4 while the latter's is 2.