Racial abilities & stereotypes.

[Tallifer]

I have no problem with the way that racial modifiers are done in 3.5E or Pathfinder. Race should matter.

Try playing a hobbit or gnome who relies on a weapon for damage. Ugh. Especially when the dungeon master says there are no "small sized" weapons in town (so you take a -2 to hit even if you try to use a dagger).

 

[JamesonCourage]

There was a thread about this a while back (possibly started by you?). But there's one central problem, which is that humanity defines the average ability scores. 3-18 is meaningless in a vacuum. 10.5 is human average. Your average human can't be smarter than average, it would just change what average meant.

Wasn't me who started it (I didn't even know about it). And, well, 3-18 isn't meaningless in a vacuum. It just means that 10.5 is the average for any race before racial modifiers, and humans would be no different. It'd just be shifting the focus to move the assumption away from "10.5 is the human average" to "10.5 is the human average, except for Intelligence" just like elves have "10.5 is the elven average, except for Dexterity and Constitution". It's just divorcing humans from being "average" all around.

Humans aren't tall, strong and clumsy, that's just how halflings see us. To them, they're average and we're the freaks.

So I don't think humans should have a set ability score modifier. If you want to model this, you'd have to instead give a -1 intelligence penalty to all the other races . . . and I bet that'd be a lot harder to get off the ground.

Again, I'd rather just give them the bonus to Intelligence (since they're usually portrayed as the most adaptable race), and express that 10.5 is the mechanical average, not necessarily the human average (though it would be for most abilities, just like it is for most races). Just my take on it, though, not something I expect to happen. As always, play what you like

 

[hafrogman]

Wasn't me who started it (I didn't even know about it).

Yeah, looks like I was confused anyway. This guy had the same idea of giving humans a fixed stat bonus, but he felt it should be strength instead of intelligence.

 

[CleverNickName]

Try playing a hobbit or gnome who relies on a weapon for damage. Ugh. Especially when the dungeon master says there are no "small sized" weapons in town (so you take a -2 to hit even if you try to use a dagger).

I don't see a problem. If I am going to play "a hobbit or gnome who relies on a weapon for damage," then I would choose the Fighter class, and take Weapon Finesse as my bonus feat. To compensate for low strength, I would take the Power Attack feat, and use poison, alchemical preparations, and just plain dirty fighting tactics.

But I would not roll up a hobbit fighter and try to play it like a dwarf fighter.

 

[hafrogman]

Try playing a hobbit or gnome who relies on a weapon for damage.

But I would not roll up a hobbit fighter and try to play it like a dwarf fighter.

I would to introduce you both to Gnubbins, my gnome barbarian. He has strength and constitution as his highest stats and wields a greatsword. His size loses him only about 3 points of damage per attack. The attack penalty is cancelled out by the size bonus. That's really not that much of a game changer in exchange for +1 AC and (in a gnome's case) +2 constitution, especially as he levels and damage totals increase.

I'm not saying that every small fighter should go such a route, but it's still quite functional under 3.X racial adjustments.

(P.S. If your DM refuses to let you get an appropriate sized weapon, that's not a system issue.)

 

[Minigiant]

I would to introduce you both to Gnubbins, my gnome barbarian. He has strength and constitution as his highest stats and wields a greatsword. His size loses him only about 3 points of damage per attack. The attack penalty is cancelled out by the size bonus. That's really not that much of a game changer in exchange for +1 AC and (in a gnome's case) +2 constitution, especially as he levels and damage totals increase.

I'm not saying that every small fighter should go such a route, but it's still quite functional under 3.X racial adjustments.

(P.S. If your DM refuses to let you get an appropriate sized weapon, that's not a system issue.)

My halfling paladin only had 14 strength and 20 dexterity had some success when the the DM let me Weapon finesse Power attack with a spiked chain with no grumbles.

I still want to make a minotaur wizard who ironically mazes people.

I am fine with penalties and size limitations but noting too dramatic. If halflings and gnomes are such horrible fighters, you can't ever put orcs near their hills, huh.

 

[Leatherhead]

If you don't have stereotypes, you can't make characters who rebel against the stereotypes

 

[chaochou]

Providing extreme examples to illustrate a point can be done by either side of an argument but does not prove either point.

Since the OP is opinion, rather than a proposition which can be proven or disproven, I think this is a disengenuous response to a contrary opinion.

 

[El Mahdi]

I don't mind ability bonuses, I just don't like ability penalties.

I get the logic of using bonuses and penalties to create a sense of racial difference, based on the average abilities of the race. The problem for me comes that it breaks a certain logic to use penalties. PC's are the cream of the crop. Enforcing penalties is enforcing on these elite characters, a modification based on the average of their race. But bonuses still allow you to have the differences between races defined between the PC's.

A mix of Feats to highlight things is cool also.

Just drop the penalties.

 

[CleverNickName]

I don't mind ability bonuses, I just don't like ability penalties.

I get the logic of using bonuses and penalties to create a sense of racial difference, based on the average abilities of the race. The problem for me comes that it breaks a certain logic to use penalties. PC's are the cream of the crop. Enforcing penalties is enforcing on these elite characters, a modification based on the average of their race. But bonuses still allow you to have the differences between races defined between the PC's.

A mix of Feats to highlight things is cool also.

Just drop the penalties.

I disagree. Penalties might be unpleasant, but they do just as much to shape the character as the bonuses do.