Pathfinder 1E Racial classes and gestalting in Pathfinder

[VelvetViolet]

A while back someone noted that the racial classes from Arcana Evolved (and by extension the World of Warcraft roleplaying game and a couple others) wouldn't work in Pathfinder due to the way multiclassing works. A character who advanced in their racial class would be at a disadvantage because their normal class levels would be behind. The attempted solution was to replace the racial class with feats which were just heavily watered down versions of the racial class that wasted valuable feat slots.

There's a simple solution for this: use the gestalt classing rules. A character with a racial class would advance in both that class and a standard class at the same time, using the best BAB and saves from either class at each level. To keep them "balanced" with characters who aren't gestalt, they'd divide their experience points equally between their two classes, so it would cost twice at much experience to reach the next level, which would keep them a manageable one or two levels behind the other party members.

Gestalting can actually be used to replace the gimped multiclassing system entirely by having characters divide their experience between their classes like in AD&D without having to sacrifice class features and only losing out on one or two levels compared to the other party members, which is roughly on par with what the mystic theurge and similar prestige classes deal with. Plus you don't have to resort to inventing an entire new class to represent martial spellcasters or whatever.

Agree? Disagree? Alternate solutions?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I unfortunately don't have much helpful to say to you, beyond my concern that the method of taking twice as long to level each of your classes is not likely to be in balance with a non-gestalt character. A level 3//3 something is not close to the power of a level 6 something, and the difference will only increase. I'm not sure what the solution might be, but this one won't accomplish what you're looking for.

 

[N'raac]

I think you are misreading his proposal. He's splitting xp between two classes, each of which would rise at the standard rate.

So, a character with, say, 125,000 xp on the middle advancement track would be 10th level (0ver 105k and under 155k). If gestalted, he would have 52,500 xp in each of his two classes, so he would be a level 8 in each class (over 51k and under 75k).

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I think you are misreading his proposal. He's splitting xp between two classes, each of which would rise at the standard rate.

So, a character with, say, 125,000 xp on the middle advancement track would be 10th level (0ver 105k and under 155k). If gestalted, he would have 52,500 xp in each of his two classes, so he would be a level 8 in each class (over 51k and under 75k).

Ah.... very good then. Sorry, I did misunderstand. A level 8//8 would definitely be a match for a 10.

So, assuming medium progression:

XP:.........Normal Gestalt
0...........1.........1//1
2000......2
4000.................2//2
5000......3
9000......4
10000................3//3
15000....5
18000................4//4
23000....6
30000................5//5
35000....7
46000................6//6
51000....8
70000................7//7
75000....9
102000...............8//8
105000..10
150000...............9//9
155000..11
210000...............10//10
220000..12
310000...............11//11
315000..13
440000...............12//12
445000..14
630000...............13//13
635000..15
890000..16..........14//14
1270000..............15//15
1300000.17
1780000..............16//16
1800000.18
2550000.19
2600000..............17//17
3600000.20..........18//18

It would have to be playtested, but it seems reasonable at least into the mid levels. At the higher levels gestalt simply have more class abilities than a non-gestalt and I'm not sure the slightly lower HP, BAB, skillpoints, saves, etc balance.

How many levels are these racial classes, do they go to 20? I'm unfamiliar with Arcana Evolved. Are the racial-class abilities weaker than standard class abilities?

 

[Wolf72]

If you decide to revisit the racial/paragon class levels you could make them more friendly towards certain classes.

You could have all 3 of the racial levels give a +1 caster level, for example.

Or have each of your pc's start with those racial levels so everyone is on the same playing field and your pc's are solid step above the regular npc population (adjust encounters accordingly)

 

[VelvetViolet]

Racial classes only go to about 3rd or 4th level, with some having advanced racial classes that continue for another 3 or 4 levels, so the increased XP requirement would be removed after the racial class is finished and the character would gain levels in their core class at the normal XP rate from then on. They also gimp anyone who takes them because taking one means you lose levels in a core class and thus aren't as useful at higher levels.

Under the normal multi-class rules, racial classes are not balanced with regard to the core classes or monster CR. A character with 6 levels in a racial class is not equivalent to a character with 6 levels in a core class and could not take on CR 6 encounters as effectively. Splitting XP between a racial class and a core class is only a patch. In order for racial classes to be balanced with the standard classes without this patch, they'd have to be modified to function more like prestige classes, continuing the progression of a core class rather than weakening the character as levels increase. The downside is that this would pigeonhole racial classes to work better with specific core classes.

If we use gestalt in combination with 1st/2nd edition multi-classing experience rules (i.e. multiply the XP needed to reach the next level by the number of classes in the gestalt), then two-class and three-class characters would have the following levels compared to a single-class character with the same amount of experience. Note that each of a two- or three-class character's classes are always at the same level. I use the terminology "dual-class" for a gestalt of two classes, and "triple-class" for a gestalt of three classes. On average, dual-class characters are ~2 levels behind their single class companions, while triple class characters are ~3 to ~4 levels behind their single class companions.

[TABLE="width: 192"] [TR] [TD]Single[/TD] [TD]Dual[/TD] [TD]Triple[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]2[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]8[/TD] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]9[/TD] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]8[/TD] [TD]7[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]11[/TD] [TD]9[/TD] [TD]8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]13[/TD] [TD]11[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]14[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]13[/TD] [TD]11[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]14[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]17[/TD] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]14[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]14[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]19[/TD] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]15[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]16[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]

 

[gamerprinter]

There's also racial paragon classes from Rite Publishing for Pathfinder (though, of course it's 3PP), but for that, a racial paragon class is a 20 level class (and a favored class of whatever race it belongs).

Rite Publishing has only created racial paragon classes for giant (jotun), gargoyles, minotaur, medusa, wyrd (oni/elf cross race), ironborn (construct), restless souls (back from the dead, but not undead), fey, henge, kappa, tengu, and dragon (still in playtest). Here's a link to DTRPG for all these racial class options.

As an example, here's the Hishoken racial paragon class for Tengu (posted at d20pfsrd.com)

Each of these racial paragon classes are custom created, and not really based on a specific class building template.

Despite it being 3PP, I prefer Rite's version of racial paragon class to other PF means of doing so.

 

[Voadam]

A while back someone noted that the racial classes from Arcana Evolved (and by extension the World of Warcraft roleplaying game and a couple others) wouldn't work in Pathfinder due to the way multiclassing works. A character who advanced in their racial class would be at a disadvantage because their normal class levels would be behind.

That's not quite true. Multiclassing in there works essentially the same as in Pathfinder or 3e (favored class is a little different). You should treat them as a dip class usually for stat bonuses or a big ability at level 3 (faen going tiny or giants going large) and it will usually work out fine if you are not going full caster. It is similar to dipping master of many forms monk or any other pathfinder class. There are strong mechanical incentives to go all 20 levels in one class but there are decent reasons to dip into AE racial classes or many other classes if you allow them in your pathfinder games.

 

[Wolf72]

The way BAB, Saves, and HP work there is already some gestalt-ing built in.

If you had a Fighter/Magic-User in 1e of levels 5/4 ... you could probably get similar results with a Fighter/Wizard of 2/4.

I think the biggest hamstring is to the spell-casting or special ability classes. Maybe re-imagining how favored class works (ie: if your favored class is cleric then for every non-cleric level you take you get the +1 caster level benefits -- Caster Level, spells/day, spells known) ... or that could be a specific feat.

I really did like my Fighter/Mage who was level 5/8 in 1e. With the current BAB system I can get the same results with less levels in fighter.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Pathfinder didn't change how multi-classing works.
The multi-classing rules are pretty much exactly the same in Pathfinder as they were in 3.0 (the only exceptions I can think of being favoured classes working differently and no xp penalty for widely varying levels)

As such the racial classes work exactly the same in pathfinder as they did before.
Now with the class design in pathfinder you might be giving more up to get the racial classes but that's a different thing and could either be addressed by reworking the racial classes slightly or people deciding what's more important for them.

I don't see how your solution would work for racial classes seeing as, iirc, the most levels they had were 3.

Also consider if you'd let somebody do it as, say, a sorcerer/oracle in a non-gestalt game...