Racial Paragons: What do you think?

[pawsplay]

What do you think of the 3-level Paragon classes, a la Unearthed Arcane for 3? Do you like them for core races?

What do you think about evolutionary or race-based progression, in the style of Arcane Evolved or Savage Species type classes?

What do you think about longer progression, beyond 3rd level?

 

[Votan]

What do you think of the 3-level Paragon classes, a la Unearthed Arcane for 3? Do you like them for core races?

What do you think about evolutionary or race-based progression, in the style of Arcane Evolved or Savage Species type classes?

What do you think about longer progression, beyond 3rd level?

Yes, I like them, especially for races with power issues (e.g. flight) or to enhance characteristics that make a race interesting.

I do think that they are extremely hard to balance, given the spellcasting progression assumptions of 3.5E. I think long progression chains are, however, a very good idea.

 

[Philosopher]

I like the basic idea, but it depends on how they might be used. Do you have some context in mind?

 

[pawsplay]

Imagine you wrote up an ogre as a race, roughly balanced against the other races. Imagine, further, you wrote a few feats that would further advance your ogre-ness to the point you looked more like the MM ogre in capabilities. Would it be helpful to have a three level Ogre class to focus on ogre-ness?

What if the race in question was something that had more racial powers, like a dragon-like race or some kind of outsider? Would it be good to provide an option to delve more deeply into those powers, rather than spending general feats on them at a much slower rate? I've seen some of the problems of a Savage Species type approach, especially wrt to casters, but I can also imagine that it might be frustrating to have to wait quite a few levels to get all the goodies you probably picked the race for in the first place.

The other context, I suppose, would be something like: is there a place for a dwarf paragon class in Pathfinder? I haven't seen it done. Further, favored class bonuses, traits, and more modular classes remove a lot of the impetus for it.

 

[Philosopher]

I see. Yeah, that sounds like it would be a great option to have, if it served a particular purpose in the campaign.

Of all the examples you give, I like the Arcana Evolved idea best. With the Savage Species model, you need to complete all of the levels in the monster class before taking levels in another class, which just limits options. Plus, I hated the fact that you don't get a HD every level (I guess I was just never a fan of LA). The Unearthed Arcana paragon classes are good, but they're somewhat bland. What does it mean for an elf to become more "elf-like"? The evolved racial classes are great, because they tie in to the setting. Taking levels in these classes actually means something.

Having said that, it would also be nice to have the option of taking a few racial feats without dipping into another class, if I want to build on my racial abilities without sacrificing my base class advancement.

Is this for some sort of followup to Fistful of Denarii?

 

[pawsplay]

Is this for some sort of followup to Fistful of Denarii?

You bet. I'm still working on my thesis for graduate school, but I plan to start playtesting once that's out of the way.

 

[Philosopher]

You bet.

I look forward to it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What do you think of the 3-level Paragon classes, a la Unearthed Arcane for 3? Do you like them for core races?

I like them.

What do you think about evolutionary or race-based progression, in the style of Arcane Evolved or Savage Species type classes?

While I like them both, I think the ones in AU/AE are better designed, overall. The combination of the facts that the AU/AE ones have full class-style benefits at each level and that no PC need take any levels in their racial class at all makes them superior.

What do you think about longer progression, beyond 3rd level?

I think that for powerful races, you NEED a longer progression. For instance, when I designed a homebrew using some races with LAs high ECLs, I converted them using the rule of thumb of +1LA = 1 Racial level, with benefits (and penalties) spread out as evenly as I could possibly work out. Thus, a race with a +3LA and a +8Str adjustment would have a set of baseline adjustments- including +2Str, along with a 3 level racial class, gaining +2Str per racial level. A race with a high-powered SLA ability equivalent to a 6th level spell would probably have more levels in its racial class, exactly how many depending upon what else the race can do.

 

[Mark Chance]

Racial paragons are okay, but I like Dawnforge's racial progressions better. No multiclassing required. Characters gain new racial traits, feats, et cetera, based on character level, choosing them from each race's individualized lists.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm quite over the moon with the series of racial classes that Necromancers of the Northwest have been doing lately. So far, they've released the nymph, the hound archon, and the succubus as part of their "Races with Class" series of articles.

They go into their design philosophy regarding building these racial classes in this article, but the bottom line of it is that they've adopted a particular stance in regards to these: they break the base monster down into however many levels encapsulate its stats, and then add as many levels as necessary to reach an even twenty.

The idea here is that, once the monster reaches enough levels to be equal to the base monster, it can then multiclass or continue its racial progression. If it chooses to continue, it gains new powers and abilities as an advanced member of its species. It's quite ingenious, and I really love seeing the new powers they've invented for the races they've done so far.