DDAL Racism and DDAL4-1 [Spoilers]

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RCanine

First Post
Um, no. Nobody gets to determine context for me, but me. If my self-determined context is different from yours and you incorrectly apply your context to me, you are the one in the wrong and any offense taken is your fault, not mine.

This is the type of empathy the world needs more of. I mean, just look at the words:

me, me, my self-determined, you incorrectly, me, you are in the wrong, your fault, not mine.

I could try and reason against this, but there's certainly no arguing against such textbook egocentrism.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is the type of empathy the world needs more of. I mean, just look at the words:

me, me, my self-determined, you incorrectly, me, you are in the wrong, your fault, not mine.

The alternative is victim. I'm not going to be the victim of your (universal you) context. You don't get to put your (universal you) hang-ups on me.
 

RCanine

First Post
The alternative is victim. I'm not going to be the victim of your (universal you) context. You don't get to put your (universal you) hang-ups on me.

Here's another way to say the same thing:

I don't care if I say something that is hurtful to you. Your feelings are none of my concern.

It's a free country and you're allowed to feel that way if you'd like, but I expect you to be very lonely as a result.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Here's another way to say the same thing:

You can continue to misconstrue what I say if you like, it's not going to make you correct, though it might make you feel better.

It's a free country and you're allowed to feel that way if you'd like, but I expect you to be very lonely as a result.

You're going to be disappointed then.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
If someone invests to the point where in game racism becomes out of game racism, that's 100% on them and 0% the responsibility of the game. At that point, they should take a step back and probably play a different game.

In our world, this attitude is called 'blaming the victim'. ("Oh, you got sexually assaulted? Well, you shouldn't have been wearing that outfit, then.") It's a good way to avoid any responsibility for something bad that happened, but that doesn't make it the right or correct way to deal with something bad that happened.

--
Pauper
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In our world, this attitude is called 'blaming the victim'. ("Oh, you got sexually assaulted? Well, you shouldn't have been wearing that outfit, then.")

That is only true if you ignore what I have been saying. First huge flaw in your theory there. I have been talking explicitly about minor things. Sexual assault is not minor. Second huge flaw there. I am talking about racism, not about crimes.

Essentially, if I have an orange house and someone walks by who is offended by the color orange, that's on them. I have no obligation to change my house just because someone decided to be offended by something trivial. That person should go get therapy and get over his problem.

This issue here is on par with being offended by the color orange. If someone is going to be offended due to real world racism by something that has absolutely nothing to do with real world racism, that's on him. The game company shouldn't be expected to cater to something so minor.

This entire thread is pretty silly in my opinion. The Romani people comprise 0.32% of the American population. Combine that with the fact that D&D players are also a very, very small percentage of the population. Essentially, we here are debating a sliver of a sliver. Now add to that the triviality of the issue and that most of the Romani are probably rational enough to understand the difference between a game and the real world, so aren't offended, and there are probably more people offended here in this thread on their behalf than there are offended Romani.
 

RCanine

First Post
I am talking about racism, not about crimes.

It's like the jokes keep writing themselves.

Essentially, if I have an orange house and someone walks by who is offended by the color orange, that's on them. I have no obligation to change my house just because someone decided to be offended by something trivial.

Clearly you don't live in a place with an HOA. I PUT A LEIN ON YOUR HOUSE BECAUSE YOU HUNG YOUR CLOTHES OUT TO DRY MUA HA HA HAHA.

The Romani people comprise 0.32% of the American population.

At what percentage of the population do people warrant being treated decently by the people around them? 3/5?

I'm not actually willing to debate your post, because it's pretty clear you lack awareness of your own privilege, and aren't really interested remedying that. But I hope you reply again because I enjoy your arguments.
 

Dracoprimus

First Post
Essentially, if I have an orange house and someone walks by who is offended by the color orange, that's on them. I have no obligation to change my house just because someone decided to be offended by something trivial. That person should go get therapy and get over his problem.

This issue here is on par with being offended by the color orange. If someone is going to be offended due to real world racism by something that has absolutely nothing to do with real world racism, that's on him. The game company shouldn't be expected to cater to something so minor.

Are you seriously equating a racist slur to house color? The context is there, no matter how much you want to shove your head in the sand about that context.

"Well, I'm only being an :):):):):):):) towards like 5 people", you are STILL being an :):):):):):):).

WHY are you in this board, still arguing this? This board is for Adventurers League. The admins of AL have acknowledged that this is a valid concern. The admins have clearly stated that the AL policy is to be respectful to those of Romani descent(regardless of how many or how few there might be) and that AL games are NOT to use a word that is widely known to be a slur. If you can't, or won't follow AL policy, then maybe you shouldn't be involved in this organized play program. But, honestly, NO organized play program is going to support your view. There is NOTHING in your view that is compatible with a goal of being inclusive.
 

delericho

Legend
Essentially, if I have an orange house and someone walks by who is offended by the color orange, that's on them. I have no obligation to change my house just because someone decided to be offended by something trivial.

There are parts of Northern Ireland and parts of Glasgow where painting your house orange absolutely would be considered a deliberate insult.
 

Cascade

First Post
It's like the jokes keep writing themselves.

I'm not actually willing to debate your post, because it's pretty clear you lack awareness of your own privilege, and aren't really interested remedying that. But I hope you reply again because I enjoy your arguments.

ah there it is...the progressive agenda:
"You are wrong. I am right and because you cannot admit you are wrong, you are privileged and racist and the people in right must make you see it."

you can see all of the steps.

first- ask nicely to change how the offender thinks and perceives what you want.
if they don't agree - be slightly mean and try get popular acceptance.
If that doesn't work - find a victim of the cause and shame the offender.
If that doesn't work, make it personal and use racism or other hot topic catch phrases.
If that doesn't work, change laws to force compliance.


You can see all of these steps in the above thread.

what's that ?... ignore button...never had to use, but I'll see how it works.

/facepalm - bringing real world issues into a fantasy thread discussion on background flavor.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Clearly you don't live in a place with an HOA. I PUT A LEIN ON YOUR HOUSE BECAUSE YOU HUNG YOUR CLOTHES OUT TO DRY MUA HA HA HAHA.

Clearly we aren't talking about a situation where someone has agreed in advance to something. Your counterarguments are weak and generally have little to do with the discussion.

I'm beginning to wonder if you are here to debate in good faith.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Are you seriously equating a racist slur to house color?

Nope. There is no racist slur in this discussion. No racism other than fake game racism exists. I'm equating one self-fabricated offense with another self-fabricated offense.

"Well, I'm only being an :):):):):):):) towards like 5 people", you are STILL being an :):):):):):):).

If you are going to alter your life every time 5 people are :):):):):):):), your life is screwed and in a constant state of chaotic flux. Better to get those 5 people therapy so that they can better themselves and not be offended by non-offensive things.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
There are parts of Northern Ireland and parts of Glasgow where painting your house orange absolutely would be considered a deliberate insult.

There are parts of the world where eating bacon will do the same thing. I'm not going to stop eating bacon here in America. If someone from that part of the world moves here to America, I'm still not going to stop eating bacon, or apologize for eating it, or feel bad for eating it. That person can feel offended all he wants. He chose to move to a country where people eat bacon, so it's on him to cope with his feelings on that subject.
 

delericho

Legend
There are parts of the world where eating bacon will do the same thing. I'm not going to stop eating bacon here in America.

WotC sell their product beyond America, so they need to be aware of things beyond the American horizon. And, yes, American companies that do business in other countries do indeed adapt their businesses to suit - you won't find bacon on the menu in McDonalds in Saudi Arabia.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
WotC sell their product beyond America, so they need to be aware of things beyond the American horizon. And, yes, American companies that do business in other countries do indeed adapt their businesses to suit - you won't find bacon on the menu in McDonalds in Saudi Arabia.

And I would have no issue with localized changes to AL in those OTHER countries where the Romani more significant percentage of players.
 

delericho

Legend
And I would have no issue with localized changes to AL in those OTHER countries where the Romani more significant percentage of players.

I think you'll be out of luck on that one - I can't see WotC doing two different versions, and if there's only one, it's a fair bet they'll be going for the one that doesn't cause offense in Europe. (And the AL reps here have already indicated that they're re-editing the adventure in question.)
 

kalani

First Post
Alright, I am going to ask that one of the AL admins who moderates this forum to close this thread. It has served all useful purpose and I am now starting to get offended by comments which strike a personal nerve.... As a MTF transgender woman, I am a minority myself - and comments such as "why would I change for 5 people" are deeply offensive to myself, and anyone who is in a minority. It is the height of privileged attitude..

It is the same attitude which is why prejudice is still rampant in this society we live..... Because people are too selfish and unwilling to make even the slightest accommodation for those WHO GENUINELY NEED IT......The same arguments that are being made about the Romani minority could equally be applied to any minority.

Why should I care about equal rights and freedom from discrimination for for women, racial ethnicities, GLBTI, people of disability, people of different cultures/religions, etc... That is essentially the argument you are making.

I don't care how small the minority is - EVERYONE should be treated with the same respect and dignity, and be free from prejudice and discrimination. I don't care that Romani are only 0.36% of a population. In a population of 7.X billion people, that equates to approximately 25 million individuals world wide we should be mindful of (assuming the % is accurate), and respectful toward.

Even if it was just a single individual - we should still be respectful. There is never any excuse for being exclusionary, and prejudiced. Regardless of how YOU (in your privileged position) feels about a word - the word itself carries negative baggage toward the minority it was directed toward. It is therefore on THEM to say whether the word is ok or not.... NOT US!!! The same applies to every word that has been used in a pejorative fashion to one or more minorities.... It is up to them if they are willing to repurpose the word and make it ok to use.

For example - the term "Tranny" carries negative connotations towards my own minority. It is NOT OK to use this term in reference to us - regardless of how you feel about the word or whether you think it is a perfectly acceptable word with no baggage......Terms such as this are not about YOU. What you feel about them doesn't matter in the slightest. What the persecuted minority feels about the word however, is a completely different story.

As I understand it, the term "Gypsy" carries the same emotionally-charged connotation toward the Romani, as "Tranny" does to me and other trans-individuals (I am using a word relating to my own minority in an effort not to have my own privilege showing by referencing other negatively-charged words belonging to different minority groups, but the same message applies).

The Admins have expressly asked people to be respectful toward the Romani people and refrain from using this word. The admins have also apologized for the minor gaffe in editing 4-1, and are taking steps to correct this UNINTENTIONAL oversight.

Your privilege is showing... and at this point, I am asking this thread to be closed before someone says the wrong thing and causes tempers to flare.
 
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Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
That is only true if you ignore what I have been saying. First huge flaw in your theory there.

No, the flaw in my theory was thinking I could have a discussion with someone who clearly isn't interested in one -- you're not only wrong, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Case in point:

Essentially, if I have an orange house and someone walks by who is offended by the color orange, that's on them.

Let's say that, for decades, orange was the color of houses of people considered sub-human. Anyone passing by could abuse the people living there, order them to do physical labor without pay, even kill them with zero repercussions. Then one day, society decided we weren't going to do that anymore, and as a sign that we were serious about that, we eliminated orange from the housing color palette.

Do you still think someone who lived in an orange house, or whose parents, grandparents, or other ancestors lived in an orange house and is aware of the history of what an orange house represents has no cause to be offended?

This is what you're doing when you equate orange houses and racism. They're not even remotely the same thing, and trying to equate them trivializes and minimizes an issue we're still struggling with today.

Now I get where you're coming from -- you think, 'well I didn't do any of that stuff, so why do I have to apologize for things I didn't do'? Others in this thread have already pointed out what that says about you as a person, so my repeating it isn't going to make it sink in.

This entire thread is pretty silly in my opinion.

On that point, I agree. The admins have already published one article about the issue, apologizing to those who were offended. One admin has even actively requested additional articles from those who feel the original article either didn't go far enough or didn't say what really needed to be said from an organizational standpoint. Coming into the thread and waving your arms around like a troll saying, "I don't see why this is such a big deal," is neither useful nor necessary. But then, perhaps I just answered my own question.

I mean, honestly, the point you seem to be trying to make here is that anybody should have the right to be an ass if they choose to be. Philosophically, that's a defensible position. Socially, that's crap, because just as people have the right to be asses, others have the right of freedom of association, which includes the right not to associate with asses.

Edit: Almost forgot, speaking of the right not to associate with asses -- *plonk*.

--
Pauper
 

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