hmmm.. its one of the few paragon path that gives avenger a chance of standing head to head with other strikers...
(half elf cheese puts him over, but radiant servant/SoC makes him about =)
sad but true...
Radiant Avenger/Student of Caiphon advice
- Thread starter Llamas Notsheep
- Start date
hmmm.. its one of the few paragon path that gives avenger a chance of standing head to head with other strikers...
(half elf cheese puts him over, but radiant servant/SoC makes him about =)
sad but true...
Sad but true indeed...
Llamas Notsheep
First Post
I don't find SOC to be particularly cheesy. Power gamey, maybe, but not cheesey. You're still playing an avenger, focusing on avenger powers and avenger flavor. It just happens to be the one way (aside from half elf twin strike) avengers keep up. I did some maths, and an optimized SOC avenger is still significantly lower in DPR than a rogue/daggermaster at the same level. But it's close enough to still be an effective striker in paragon. IIRC the numbers were low-mid 30s DPR in early paragon for the SOC avenger, and upper 30s for the rogue. I had previously been playing a rogue in this campaign, and rolled up the avenger with PHB2 came out, just to try something new and a little more varied. I'm still very pleased with the change 4 levels later, despite doing somewhat less damage.
For the Divine Empowerment feat, my DM and I talked it over and figured that, on average I get around 2-3 OAs per encounter (since avengers tend to try to isolate their targets... less action around you, at least some of the time). I tend not to charge all that often, although that may change somewhat now that I have a radiant basic. Still, 2-4 normal attacks gone radiant per encounter seemed reasonable for a paragon feat. To both of us.
For the Divine Empowerment feat, my DM and I talked it over and figured that, on average I get around 2-3 OAs per encounter (since avengers tend to try to isolate their targets... less action around you, at least some of the time). I tend not to charge all that often, although that may change somewhat now that I have a radiant basic. Still, 2-4 normal attacks gone radiant per encounter seemed reasonable for a paragon feat. To both of us.
WOLead
First Post
About Student of Caiphon needing Errata? Daggermaster is just as bad, if not more so, then Student of Caiphon. SoC forces the person to use Radiant powers/enchantments while Daggermaster forces the person to use Daggers as their weapon.
Heh, I'll see the standard Half-elf cheese with a different take on the Half-elf Cheese.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Hermit Aidendale the Woodsmen Hunter, level 16
Half-Elf, Avenger, Student of Caiphon
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Unity
Pact Initiate: Pact Initiate (star pact)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 20.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14.
AC: 32 Fort: 25 Reflex: 26 Will: 28
HP: 118 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 29
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +13, Perception +20, Stealth +20, Acrobatics +16, Insight +20
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +13, Endurance +10, Heal +13, History +8, Intimidate +13, Nature +13, Streetwise +13, Thievery +11, Athletics +7
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Urgrosh)
Level 2: Pact Initiate
Level 4: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 8: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 10: Power of Arcana
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: White Lotus Riposte
Level 14: Two-Weapon Opening
Level 16: White Lotus Master Riposte
POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Radiant Vengeance
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Dilettante: Virtuous Strike
Avenger encounter 1: Avenging Echo
Avenger daily 1: Temple of Light
Avenger utility 2: Distracting Flare
Avenger encounter 3: Bound by Fate
Avenger daily 5: Oath of Consuming Light
Avenger utility 6: Step of Fate
Avenger encounter 7: Celestia Endures
Avenger daily 9: Temple of Shadow
Avenger utility 10: Ever Onward
Avenger encounter 13: Dervish Strike (replaces Bound by Fate)
Avenger daily 15: Aspect of Fury (replaces Temple of Shadow)
Avenger utility 16: Astral Cloak
ITEMS
Holy Symbol, Rending Urgrosh +3, Symbol of the Warpriest +3, Magic Feyweave Armor +4, Piwafwi +4, Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier), Boots of the Fencing Master (heroic tier), Cannith Goggles (heroic tier)
====================================================
No Radiant Weapon for this version, so only attacks with the Radiant Keywords gets the critical range. Though fortunately, Virtuous Strike does contain the Radiant Keyword and it is a basic attack. Less defenses then the Twin Strike you showed, especially in Fort, but the little advantages in the build are really useful.
The main attack is Virtuous Strike, so I'll walk through what happens. Attacking your OoE lets you have that almost 30% chance of critting. If you land a critical with Virtuous Strike, you get two free attacks(Rending and Two Weapon Opening) with Virtuous Strike(Melee Basic Attack) with each side of the Urgosh. If you crit with the d12 side of the Urgosh, you get another two free attacks with each side of the Urgosh. If you crit with the d8 side of the Urgosh you get one free attack(whether you can go and use this on the d12 side is up to debate so I'll assume no).
So we have the chance of Chaining Criticals, but that still doesn't make it have a lead over Twin Strike version just yet. That is where the "Power of Arcana" feat comes in. Not only is Virtuous Strike a Divine power that counts as a melee basic attack, but now it also counts as Arcane and gives +1 to attack rolls to its and Radiant Vegeance's attack rolls until the end of your next turn just by being used. Not only that, but it also now allows White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte to work with Virtuous Strike.
So you hit/crit your target with Virtuous Strike, now the foe is going to take x*5(Cha) radiant damage if they attack you where x is the number of times you hit the target with Virtuous Strike. On top of allowing you to repeat Virtuous Strike and its possible repetitions in Criticals as an Immediate Reaction.
Number wise? Its a 27.75% chance to see at least three attacks, a 15.4% chance to see at least four attacks, a 9.8% chance to see at least five attacks....and so on each time you first use Virtuous Strike(Whether by Standard Action, Immediate Reaction, or OA).
That +2 bonus to saving throws until the end of your next turn may never be needed, but having that +2 cumulate with each possible Virtuous Strike attack that hits just may help ya make a Save when you need it. That +2 bonus is untyped after all. Also, that +1 attack roll bonus to Arcane powers from "Power of Arcana" is also untyped, meaning you get a cumulative +1 to Virtuous Strike attack rolls until the end of your next turn each time Virtuous Strike is used. Note that the bonus comes from using Virtuous Strike, not hitting/critting with Virtuous Strike.
Yes, Censure of Unity with its +2 damage for each ally adjacent to the target sounds really nice. Also nice to know that Radiant Vengeance also is included in the White Lotus feats with Power of Arcana.
Heh, I'll see the standard Half-elf cheese with a different take on the Half-elf Cheese.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Hermit Aidendale the Woodsmen Hunter, level 16
Half-Elf, Avenger, Student of Caiphon
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Unity
Pact Initiate: Pact Initiate (star pact)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 20.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14.
AC: 32 Fort: 25 Reflex: 26 Will: 28
HP: 118 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 29
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +13, Perception +20, Stealth +20, Acrobatics +16, Insight +20
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +13, Endurance +10, Heal +13, History +8, Intimidate +13, Nature +13, Streetwise +13, Thievery +11, Athletics +7
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Urgrosh)
Level 2: Pact Initiate
Level 4: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 8: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 10: Power of Arcana
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: White Lotus Riposte
Level 14: Two-Weapon Opening
Level 16: White Lotus Master Riposte
POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Radiant Vengeance
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Dilettante: Virtuous Strike
Avenger encounter 1: Avenging Echo
Avenger daily 1: Temple of Light
Avenger utility 2: Distracting Flare
Avenger encounter 3: Bound by Fate
Avenger daily 5: Oath of Consuming Light
Avenger utility 6: Step of Fate
Avenger encounter 7: Celestia Endures
Avenger daily 9: Temple of Shadow
Avenger utility 10: Ever Onward
Avenger encounter 13: Dervish Strike (replaces Bound by Fate)
Avenger daily 15: Aspect of Fury (replaces Temple of Shadow)
Avenger utility 16: Astral Cloak
ITEMS
Holy Symbol, Rending Urgrosh +3, Symbol of the Warpriest +3, Magic Feyweave Armor +4, Piwafwi +4, Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier), Boots of the Fencing Master (heroic tier), Cannith Goggles (heroic tier)
====================================================
No Radiant Weapon for this version, so only attacks with the Radiant Keywords gets the critical range. Though fortunately, Virtuous Strike does contain the Radiant Keyword and it is a basic attack. Less defenses then the Twin Strike you showed, especially in Fort, but the little advantages in the build are really useful.
The main attack is Virtuous Strike, so I'll walk through what happens. Attacking your OoE lets you have that almost 30% chance of critting. If you land a critical with Virtuous Strike, you get two free attacks(Rending and Two Weapon Opening) with Virtuous Strike(Melee Basic Attack) with each side of the Urgosh. If you crit with the d12 side of the Urgosh, you get another two free attacks with each side of the Urgosh. If you crit with the d8 side of the Urgosh you get one free attack(whether you can go and use this on the d12 side is up to debate so I'll assume no).
So we have the chance of Chaining Criticals, but that still doesn't make it have a lead over Twin Strike version just yet. That is where the "Power of Arcana" feat comes in. Not only is Virtuous Strike a Divine power that counts as a melee basic attack, but now it also counts as Arcane and gives +1 to attack rolls to its and Radiant Vegeance's attack rolls until the end of your next turn just by being used. Not only that, but it also now allows White Lotus Riposte and Master Riposte to work with Virtuous Strike.
So you hit/crit your target with Virtuous Strike, now the foe is going to take x*5(Cha) radiant damage if they attack you where x is the number of times you hit the target with Virtuous Strike. On top of allowing you to repeat Virtuous Strike and its possible repetitions in Criticals as an Immediate Reaction.
Number wise? Its a 27.75% chance to see at least three attacks, a 15.4% chance to see at least four attacks, a 9.8% chance to see at least five attacks....and so on each time you first use Virtuous Strike(Whether by Standard Action, Immediate Reaction, or OA).
That +2 bonus to saving throws until the end of your next turn may never be needed, but having that +2 cumulate with each possible Virtuous Strike attack that hits just may help ya make a Save when you need it. That +2 bonus is untyped after all. Also, that +1 attack roll bonus to Arcane powers from "Power of Arcana" is also untyped, meaning you get a cumulative +1 to Virtuous Strike attack rolls until the end of your next turn each time Virtuous Strike is used. Note that the bonus comes from using Virtuous Strike, not hitting/critting with Virtuous Strike.
Yes, Censure of Unity with its +2 damage for each ally adjacent to the target sounds really nice. Also nice to know that Radiant Vengeance also is included in the White Lotus feats with Power of Arcana.
Last edited:
Satori
First Post
Let's think about this:
-Avenger Daggermaster
--1d4 weapon, 18-20 Crit.
-Avenger SoC
--1d12 High Crit Radiant Weapon, 18-20 Crit.
Yup...totally equal.
---
Of course, you can actually USE the Powers from Daggermaster, unlike SoC. In addition, Daggermaster lets you dump Charisma.
Honestly, neither are THAT bad...but comparing Daggermaster to SoC is a bit silly and dishonest.
Llamas Notsheep
First Post
More like
-Avenger Daggermaster
--1d4 bloodiron weapon + 3d8 or 5d8 1/enc, 18-20 crit
-Avenger SoC
--1d12 high crit radiant weapon, 18-20 crit
A daggermaster with bloodiron will do more DPR than an SoC with a radiant weapon.
+4 weapons and nothing else mean a daggermaster is doing 4 + static mods + 8d10 (48 + static), versus the SoC's 12 + static mods + 2d12 + 4d6 + 4 (43 + static).
At epic levels, with +5 and a focus on crits, you're looking at:
-Avenger daggermaster (before static mods)
-- 8 + 2(5d10 bloodiron + 2d10 war rings + 1d10 devastating crit) = 96 average
-Avenger SoC (before static mods, but incl. radiant weapon bonus)
-- 24 + 5d6 + 5 + 1d10 (devastating crit) + 2d6 (war rings) = 59 average
And note that the daggermaster is going to get 30 or 40 extra damage once per encounter from sneak attack (Depending on whether he has backstabber).
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything stopping an Avenger from using a Bloodiron weapon. The enchantment goes on any weapon type, not just daggers.
Maybe you didn't notice that the Radiant keyword is coming from the Avenger's powers themselves, not his weapon. That is the whole point of this build.
Since there are plenty of Avenger powers with both Radiant and Weapon keywords, how exactly is Daggermaster better?
Llamas Notsheep
First Post
It's not, I was just demonstrating, based on his premise for how superior the avenger is (he picked radiant weapon, not me), that the rogue doesn't suck, and is in fact at least competitive. I'm still playing (and enjoying) that radiant avenger. I've seen some maths showing that a daggermaster who consistently gets CA is marginally better than a radiant critvenger (both using bloodiron), but I know my character is at least competitive, as well as being more durable than virtually any rogue, and far more versatile than some cheesy dilettante twin-striking avenger/daggermaster.
I don't think you should be worried about being competitive with an OP build that relies on a paragon path from Dragon. Daggermaster is powerful, but not broken.
SoC needs errata, Dragon articles need better testing and editing, and any DM who cares at all about balance should be very careful about which Dragon materials are allowed in his/her game. That's what all this boils down to.
SoC needs errata, Dragon articles need better testing and editing, and any DM who cares at all about balance should be very careful about which Dragon materials are allowed in his/her game. That's what all this boils down to.
