"Railroading" is just a pejorative term for...

[pawsplay]

Yes- that's why I've been trying to use "sandbox" and "story-based game" ("linear" has negative connotations too imho), with "railroad" and "rowboat" the extremes where, as Pawsplay puts it, things get dysfunctional.

All RPGs are story-based games.

 

[pawsplay]

The list is pretty good save for the first element -- focus on discovery versus plot/cohesion is not a necessary condition.

When I ran a superheroic CHAMPIONS campaigns the focus was strongly NOT discovery, but it was still a sandbox according to the rest of the metrics. The players likened the cmapigns to massive soap operas in that relationships and context became incredibly important which I think illustrates a focus on plot/cohesion.

In my opinion, that is still a focus on exploration and discovery over plot and cohesion. Relationships simply replace geography as the imaginary surface. To be non-exploratory, the menaing, significance, outcome, morality etc. of the relationships would have to be somewhat predetermined. In fact, "soap opera" games are, by my definition, in the deep end of the sandbox, where most scenarios consist of, "You meet Person X, whose secret agenda is Y."

 

[chaochou]

Railroading: Control of a player-character's decisions, or opportunities for decisions, by another person (not the player of the character) in any way which breaks the Social Contract for that group, in the eyes of the character's player.

(from The Forge :: The Provisional Glossary)

If you are running an adventure where you, the GM, want to get the players from Point A to Point B you are reliant on the players co-operating to get to Point B. If they won't, or they complain about it, the social contract is broken.

Just having a Point B isn't railroading. But there's always the risk of having to fudge, change, manipulate or force events in a way a player objects to in order to get to Point B, at which point there is railroading. It's an inherent risk in that A to B approach, which is why it has become synonymous - erroneously - with the real problem: the conflict at the table.

Fundamentally there are two ways not to railroad. One is to get the players from Point A to Point B without them complaining about it. The other is by not having a point B. Both are equally valid, equally playable and equally fun, depending on your taste.

 

[The Shaman]

Relationships simply replace geography as the imaginary surface.

My flowcharts of relationships between characters look like dungeon maps, with the characters as rooms and the relationships as hallways.

 

[Celebrim]

All RPGs are story-based games.

Agreed. The term "story-based" is bad on at least two levels. First, it is as you point out so vague as to be completely non-descriptive. And, secondly, the stem "-based" in English has the additional meaning of "partial" not merely "rooted in". A "truth-based" story is in fact, at least partially fiction - it is partially rooted in truth but partially made up. A very much dislike the popularization of the stem here and elsewhere.

And as an additional point, trying to avoid 'linear' to avoid a negative connotation ends up disparaging the thing it is meant to constrast with and so is no improvement.

I think 'adventure path' would suffice. It carries the connotation of linear ('it is a path') but is widely seen as something 'good'.

In my opinion, that is still a focus on exploration and discovery over plot and cohesion. Relationships simply replace geography as the imaginary surface. To be non-exploratory, the menaing, significance, outcome, morality etc. of the relationships would have to be somewhat predetermined. In fact, "soap opera" games are, by my definition, in the deep end of the sandbox, where most scenarios consist of, "You meet Person X, whose secret agenda is Y."

I have to agree with this as well. Internal exploration and discovery is very much in keeping with most sandbox games. The character is itself part of the mental toy that is being played with in a simulation style game. In a rowboat game, it's presumably all you have. (Which implies certain high drama high concept groups might do fine in even a rowboat, being able to entertain themselves simply by interacting with each other. Of course, those groups might arguably do ok on a railroad as well, since they really don't care if they are going anywhere.)

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Well ONE way to do it, is between games or during down time 'actions' ROLL any fights between NPCs to see what side kills the other or how injurred someone is in an assassination attempt, JUST so even you (the DM) didnt know in advance how it would turn out. You could just HAVE bandits attack a town and take over, or you could actually SEE if your bandits could take over the town before the PCs arrival, determine casualties on both sides and figure it that way.

But, in Star Trek, the best way to solve any problem with the Enterprise is to reverse the linearity.

I'm curious about some thing though. The Shaman, you talk about NPC's in your world having pre-scripted fates. If the PC's do not intervene, NPC X will die on a certain day in a certain way.

How is that not a pre-scripted event? I thought that in a sandbox, nothing was pre-scripted. Now, since there is no way the players could possibly know that NPC X is going to die on a particular day in a particular way (unless they read your notes), does it actually matter?

To put it another way, what makes it better that NPC X will die on such and such a day in such and such a way, predetermined before play even begins, vs a DM who decides that NPC X will die in such and such a way in order to serve a particular theme or plot development in his game?

Since the event is entirely pre-scripted, and, since the PC's have no way of knowing that he's going to blow his own brains out on such and such a day, they have no way of actually preventing this, how is this not a railroad? It's an event which may affect them (if they have ties in some way to this NPC - if they don't then who cares if he lives or dies anyway) that they have zero control over not no ability to affect.

In what way is this not a railroad?

 

[the Jester]

All RPGs are story-based games.

I think we are going to have some terminology disagreements.

I would argue that (using my definitions) a good story-based game does not have to be linear but it cannot be a sandbox. A sandbox may well have various plot lines running through it, as a story-based game must. A sandbox can have linear adventures in it- any adventure that is a sequence of rooms in a certain order is linear, and as long as the pcs choose to follow that sequence it can still be a sandbox.

 

[Hussar]

/snip for excellent post

Fair enough. I can buy that.

 

[pawsplay]

I think we are going to have some terminology disagreements.

I would argue that (using my definitions) a good story-based game does not have to be linear but it cannot be a sandbox. A sandbox may well have various plot lines running through it, as a story-based game must. A sandbox can have linear adventures in it- any adventure that is a sequence of rooms in a certain order is linear, and as long as the pcs choose to follow that sequence it can still be a sandbox.

How are you defining "story?"

Also, I'm going to take issue with your remarks about linear adventures; a "series" of rooms is almost unknown in RPGs. You would be talking about the 18 hole golf course of the Demented God, or the Very Long Corridor on the Borderlands.

 

[The Shaman]

Also, I'm going to take issue with your remarks about linear adventures; a "series" of rooms is almost unknown in RPGs. You would be talking about the 18 hole golf course of the Demented God, or the Very Long Corridor on the Borderlands.

Is VLCotB the one with all the goblinoids living in the Horizontal Mine Shaft of Chaos?