Rain of Blood encounter power lvl 7/Invoker is too powerfull

[Mengu]

Now this thread makes me sad. I try to make useful but not overpowered characters. My Human Invoker/Adroit Explorer has Rain of Blood x2. I renamed it "Hail Storm" since I have a winter theme going with background and worshiping Raven Queen. I was feeling this was a good way to help everyone out. Is this really too powerful? Should I just happen to "forget" the attack bonus is there, or maybe nerf it to half my con bonus (which would be a 2)?

The per encounter vulnerability didn't feel that much out of line with people who have lasting frost for nearly every attack. And with everyone being mobile and combat typically running all over the place, I don't think I get more that 2 allies in the burst unless it's a close quarters fight. And even when I hit multiple enemies, everyone just focuses on one, to take one down, so the vulnerability on the other enemies kind of goes to waste. And the allies in the AoE can be dazed, immobilized, stunned, etc, and unable to get full benefits. When they do it's great, but even the best laid plans seem to have a way of going awry once initiative is rolled.

 

[fba827]

eh - for the attack bonus you've got to get some of your allies in it as well. how often will you have all your allies bunched up with the enemies?

i don't see the attack bonus as much an issue (but then again, our group rarely is well coordinated since chaos quickly ensues and we end up doing our own thing half the time ).

 

[Prestidigitalis]

(but then again, our group rarely is well coordinated since chaos quickly ensues and we end up doing our own thing half the time ).

Chaos ensue? Please tell me, when does the chaos ever *abate*???

 

[keterys]

I wouldn't worry about it, Mengu.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Blackbrrd - I still disagree almost entirely with you on the balance of the invoker, since it's actually the first controller whose encounter powers made me say that it was worth having one over a striker like the sorcerer or defender like the swordmage instead...

But why don't you just not allow Covenant of Wrath in your game if that one ability bothers you so much?

Actually it isn't the Covenant of Wrath that bothers me, I think it's a very nice class feature and I wished the Wizard/Druid had something similar.

What I don't like is the easy access to ENEMY only 7x7, 3x3, 5x5 area Encounter powers at level 1, 3 and 7. Especially the ones at level 1 and 3. Together with the at-will powers that targets 2 or 3 enemies with 1d4+wis or 1d6+wis damage from the start. This makes the damage output of the Invoker really high compared to the rest of the party at low levels. In addition, many of his powers target will which is really low.

I am quite sure that if I compare the Invokers DPR to any other character in the party he will be 25% higher when not using action point and 75% higher when using an action point.

At the same time, I am not really bothered, the differences in 3.5 was MUCH larger.

 

[Felon]

I suppose it would have helped if the OP would have qualified his qualms with this power from the get-go, rather than just throw it out and leave us to divine what he doesn't like about it. It's evident that we have people on different pages here. Some are locking on to the attack bonus for allies. However, his follow-up comments primarily take issue with the vulnerability 5 that it imposes on all targets.

Effectively giving all allies +5 damage on every attack is certainly nothing I see very often--not from controllers, not from leaders--and definitely not against such a (potentially) large group of targets, which as has already been mentioned, stacks with other area-affecting powers in a manner that's sort of kee-razy.

So yeah, I could see calling it overpowered. In general, the invoker seems to be pretty capable at co-opting the leader role in a party. Hell, most of their powers would make a bard feel greeny with envy.

 

[Eric888]

It targets Fortitude. That is a significnt factor. If it targetted reflex or will it might be overpowered, but since it target fort I think it is fine.

 

[Felon]

It targets Fortitude. That is a significnt factor. If it targetted reflex or will it might be overpowered, but since it target fort I think it is fine.

Lord, why do people keep trying to pull this?

That it targets Fortitude is irrelevant. You might see a fair number of high-Fort monsters in the MM, but it's still not useful as any kind of reliable metric towards what you can expect in a given encounter.

 

[Felon]

Now this thread makes me sad. I try to make useful but not overpowered characters. My Human Invoker/Adroit Explorer has Rain of Blood x2. I renamed it "Hail Storm" since I have a winter theme going with background and worshiping Raven Queen. I was feeling this was a good way to help everyone out. Is this really too powerful? Should I just happen to "forget" the attack bonus is there, or maybe nerf it to half my con bonus (which would be a 2)?

It's the vulnerability imposition that's uber. The attack bonus is just icing on the cake.

The per encounter vulnerability didn't feel that much out of line with people who have lasting frost for nearly every attack

Making someone vulnerable to all damage is a heck of a lot more powerful than making someone vulnerable to cold. No comparison really--unless you have a party of cold-dealers.

And with everyone being mobile and combat typically running all over the place, I don't think I get more that 2 allies in the burst unless it's a close quarters fight. And even when I hit multiple enemies, everyone just focuses on one, to take one down, so the vulnerability on the other enemies kind of goes to waste.

Assuming that no other AoE attacks go off in that round, then sure.

And the allies in the AoE can be dazed, immobilized, stunned, etc, and unable to get full benefits. When they do it's great, but even the best laid plans seem to have a way of going awry once initiative is rolled.

If I had that pessimistic rationale, then I'd be building the most broken character I could get away with. You picked an overpowered power, buddy. I say just learn to live with it and enjoy your godliness. You may even find that building the best possible invoker you can will lead to combats dragging on less.

For what it's worth, I still think I prefer Written in Fire.

 

[eamon]

Lord, why do people keep trying to pull this?

That it targets Fortitude is irrelevant. You might see a fair number of high-Fort monsters in the MM, but it's still not useful as any kind of reliable metric towards what you can expect in a given encounter.

It is, however. It may not have been explicitly called out in the DMG, but the fact is that the average fortitude defense is 1 to 2 points higher than ref or will. Particularly close-combat brutes - with whom this power is a likely choice due to the likeliness of their being in melee with the party.

A +1/+2 to attack (and quite possibly more for most common cases) is pretty significant. Course, as more monster manual's are written, this advantage may fade; it's already less significant with the release of MM2, but it's not irrelevant.