Rake

[Li Shenron]

I have to learn how it works since our Druid has a Leopard companion with Improved Grab and Rake, and I am very confused. I have just read the other thread about Grapple which already clarified something.

Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

The last sentence looks very clear. Once the Leopard is in the second round - already grappling - how many attacks does it make? At which bonus?

The Leopard's full attack entry says Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d3+1); its Rake entry says Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d3+1.

The question is three-fold:

1) does he get ADDITIONAL claw attacks or do they substitute his claw attacks? are they four at +6/+6/+1/+1 or two at +6/+6?

2) does he still get the BITE attack in his full attack routine? does it use it at -4 because he's grappling? or can he deal grappling damage with it without -4 as written in the grapple rules?

3) is the rake attack really TWO or ONE (it says 2 in the Rake rules, but it doesn't say in the Leopard description)?

Depending on the 3 answers, the full attack routine during a grapple can result very different.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To complicate the matter, the Pounce entry for the leopard says that "If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. What the hell has RAKE to do with CHARGING, if you must be already grappling at the start of the round to use Rake????

 

[Thanee]

1) Rake attacks have their own attack bonus and damage rating usually and are in addition to any other attacks. Rake is just another natural attack, just like bite, claw, etc., but it can only be used under special circumstances (like grappling).

2) Since it says, normally only one natural attack can be used, I suppose, that there is no bite attack then. Of course you can always choose to either make a grapple check to deal damage or attack at -4 (or w/o penalty in case of Rake attacks).

3) I think it says in every monsters description, how many rake attacks are gained, but in general I would assume 2.

4) Pounce is a special charge, where you get Rake attacks, it has nothing to do with grapple, but is just another situation where Rake comes into play. Pounce basically means, that the creature leaps onto its target with all four legs, therefore all can be used to attack (1 bite 2 claws (front) 2 rake (rear claws)).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Korak]

I have to learn how it works since our Druid has a Leopard companion with Improved Grab and Rake, and I am very confused. I have just read the other thread about Grapple which already clarified something.



The last sentence looks very clear. Once the Leopard is in the second round - already grappling - how many attacks does it make? At which bonus?

The Leopard's full attack entry says Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d3+1); its Rake entry says Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d3+1.

The question is three-fold:

1) does he get ADDITIONAL claw attacks or do they substitute his claw attacks? are they four at +6/+6/+1/+1 or two at +6/+6?

2) does he still get the BITE attack in his full attack routine? does it use it at -4 because he's grappling? or can he deal grappling damage with it without -4 as written in the grapple rules?

3) is the rake attack really TWO or ONE (it says 2 in the Rake rules, but it doesn't say in the Leopard description)?

Depending on the 3 answers, the full attack routine during a grapple can result very different.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To complicate the matter, the Pounce entry for the leopard says that "If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. What the hell has RAKE to do with CHARGING, if you must be already grappling at the start of the round to use Rake????

I agree with Thanee with regard to charging. The leopard gets a full attack plus two rakes when it pounces(charges) an opponent. The only other circumstance in which rake applies is a grapple that was already in effect at the beginning of the leopards initiative count. Assuming the leopard is not pinned, it may make one bite attack at +2 (+6, -4 penalty for using weapon in grapple) and two rake attacks at +6. Creatures without rake may only use one of their natural weapons in a grapple (unless they are using the -20 rule to grapple an opponent with one appendage).

 

[Li Shenron]

So do you think that the leopard should have this full attack routine both when charging/pouncing and when starting a round already grappling?

Bite +6, claw +1, claw +1, rake +6, rake +6

or that he should't use the bite attack because he needs it to hold the grapple?

 

[Thanee]

In a grapple he can do one natural weapon attack only, that will be one bite, plus two rake attacks.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

In a grapple he can do one natural weapon attack only, that will be one bite, plus two rake attacks.

That was the other question I wanted to ask. I have found this limitation under the description of Rake. Under GRAPPLE rules, it says that "You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons." Does it apply to natural weapons also? I suppose that if you attack with a manufactured weapon you still get you full attack routine; what happens with natural weapons? Do you get (beside the Rake ability) to choose between one bite and one claw, or do 2 claws count as 1 weapon?

 

[Thanee]

I'd consider the claws as different weapons. However, maybe you get multiple attacks derived from BAB in that situation, which a creature with multiple natural attacks normally does not, but I'm not sure about that.

Bye
Thanee