Random Ideas

[Herremann the Wise]

There are two things at play here I'd like to add to the point stat thing.

1) There has been a shift away from the scores and a reliance on the modifiers and I'm not too sure that's a good thing.

2) The game has progressed to the point (in 4E particularly) where not having your primary stat at the maximum possible is inefficiently foolish.

There are a few other things as well but let's look at these first.

1) Sometimes I think the modifier can be misleading. Let's compare for example a jump/athletics check (STR) and a heal check (WIS). Let's compare the jumper with a +5 STR modifier and a healer with +5 WIS modifier. The jumper is going to get much more benefit out of having high strength than a healer with high wisdom. Likewise but in reverse, extensive training will obviously assist a jumper but nowhere near as much as extensive training will assist a healer. However, in 3e the weight most certainly goes with training(ranks) where as with 4e, the overwhelming weight goes with level then training and attribute. I think this just ends up getting figures all wrong.

A possible fix. Let's say there are the following levels of expertise in a particular skill:
- Unfamiliarity
- Familiarity
- Proficiency
- Expertise
- Specialization
- Mastery
Let's also say that for some skills, we are not just interested in the modifier (mod) but multiples of that modifier (2mod, 3mod, maybe even 4mod, and then also 1mod2 for half the modifier if appropriate).

Let's now see how we can mirror the flavour of the skills with the mechanics above and get a total modifier for each of these things.

With Jump/Athletics, the emphasis should definitely be on the attribute, more so than the training. Let's say it's a 3mod skill. Let's then give the following array for training:
- U [NA - assume everybody is at least familiar with jumping]
- F [+3]
- P [+6]
- E [+7]
- S [+8]
- M [+9]
or in shorthand [f3p6e7s8m9].

This gives you the following modifiers:
- STR 17 and Expert: +16, (+9 and +7)
- STR 14 and Specialist: +14 (+6 and +8)
- STR 8 and Familiar: +0 (-3 and +3)
- STR 22 and Proficient: +22 (+18 and +6)

This sits well with previous discussion of modifiers between +0 for a novice and +20 for a paragon. The training factor may need to be tweaked a little but as a rough first run through, I feel like there is plenty of scope here to tailor things nicely.

With Healing, training should be the dominant factor. Therefore, I'd say its a 1mod skill with the following training array:

- U [-6]
- F [+0]
- P [+6]
- E [+10]
- S [+14]
- M [+18]
or in shorthand [u-6f0p6e10s14m18].

This gives you the following modifiers:
- WIS 17 and Expert: +13, (+3 and +10)
- WIS 14 and Specialist: +16 (+2 and +14)
- WIS 8 and Unfamiliar: -7 (-1 and -6)
- WIS 22 and Proficient: +12 (+6 and +6)

I think this also effects a fair balance.

2) I'll edit my thoughts in later - it's getting late.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[LotusBlossom]

I was just thinking about your idea of giving a negative bonus to Untrained, but in the context of unifying DC values. In 4e, we have Ability checks which are d20 + stat bonus, and Skill checks which are d20 + stat bonus + skill bonus (I'm leaving out the 1/2 level modifier which only complicates things more).

So, one can see that a DC check for skills (assuming trained is what your shooting for as the default) will need to be +5 higher than a similar DC for an ability check. If we move to a -5 for untrained skills and +0 for trained and leave off the 1/2 per level), then a trained skill will be d20+STR bonus, the same as a STR check by itself: d20 + STR bonus. This way we could say DC 20 is a hard task whether or not is for a skill check or an ability check.

I do like the simplicity in 4e of no negative modifiers (well almost none), but having -5 for untrained (or non-proficient for weapons) does allow for a more unified DC level system. If we want to consider attacks, and assume the attacker is proficient with the weapon (+0), then we have d20 + STR + 1/2 level (I like the 1/2 per level for the main class "skill", weapons or spell attacks), the only difference is the 1/2 per level. This is probably okay as these attacks go against the F/R/W defenses and not DCs. Also, the F/R/W scale as 1/2 per level as well, so an 'average' create of the same level can start with a similar DC: ex. DC 10 for average + any type of stat type bonuses, let's say +1 to +5), and we'd have a DC 15 creature + 1/2 it's level, which would be "about" a 50% shot for an attacker with d20 + stat bonus + 1/2 level + any other bonuses. Thus, the DC level system would still be consistent.

Lastly, as noted above, I like the 1/2 level bonus in 4e for some things, but not for everything. I like it for a classes main attack (or a set of skills if one wants the traditional type of thief character). But if something is hard (taking example form another thread I read) like a hard climb for a wall (DC20), then for untrained climbers, this should be very hard. For trained it should be hard. If a PC has put in extra training besides basic, then maybe it's easier.

I do like the idea of skill levels like Untrained -5, Trained +0, Adept/Journeyman/Medium +X, and Master +X. One could use Feats or such to either train in a skill, or increase your level in the skill. I also like the idea of being able to use a Feat or such to purchase the ability to add the 1/2 level to an already trained skill, thereby making you much better at that skill, but maybe for 'straight' skills, the levels should suffice, and for class type skills (weapons, spell attacks, diving attacks), one could purchase the 1/2 level bonus -- although I think a straight thief should have the level bonus in some thieving skills if they want.

 

[Walknot]

You know, it is true that if your primary stat in 4e is not maxed, you certainly feel it in the game. So, if only that could be fixed. Now last weekend playing 4e I noticed this sort of thing w/ my PC. In a combat vs a solo dragon monster, could only hit on a hit roll such as 18 - 20 which meant basically - a lot of wasted rounds and frustration. Call it ability lag.

Now many games have an aspect that forces a conclusion, thru a buildup / acceleration. For 4e, some have complained of the opposite, as the daily and encounter abilities are all used up. Call this power slump.

Here is one way to do two things at once, fixing the frustration of ability lag and
power slump, in one change.

Transition back to IRL, simulation-wise, a combat encounter is very tiring. How many battle scenes in movies, where it is a drawn out fight, think of where the hero and villain are both bone tired. When the hero wins with a burst of adrenaline or whaever, the villain is sometimes hardly able to defend himself.

Now back to a gamist viewpoint. Suppose that as the battle goes on, all of the AC's dwindle. Yes, that's right, maybe at the start of the battle you hit on 18-20 and 'tis tough. But you are psyched up, and get thru it.

Then the rounds go by and by, and soon enough there goes the AC, now you hit on 17-20, now 16-20, now 15-20 ... what a difference a few points of AC make! And as a low-attack bonus PC, you saved all your best powers, and let fly for the finale.

So, to recap. Max out your attack bonus, and you have the priveledge of striking harder and more often, earlier. But let slip your main ability, no prob; you are filling more of a late-encounter roll. Not bad, eh?

But, somebody would have to figure out the math.

 

[LotusBlossom]

Interesting idea of reducing the AC as the battle progresses. Maybe, tie a negative AC modifier to a PC's "Combat/Fatigue" points (or just plain HPs). As the PC/Monster is hit (and performs actions that use Combat/Fatigue points if using those), then the AC will get lower. Perhaps a -2 at bloodied, or -1 per 1/4 HP lost, or something. Or something like a -1 to AC each time you are hit by a critical to reflect wounding (this one would be easy enough to keep track of without having to do the math for bloodied, or 1/4 bloodied, etc.) Great idea Walknot.

 

[siliaris]

Any suggestions for 5e multiclassing. 3e was complex and annoying, however interesting, and 4e lacks options.

I like the idea of gestalt classing (i first saw it in 3e unearthed arcana), and wondered if anyone had ideas about it?

 

[blackknight8503]

Its been almost a year so I don't know if this forum has moved on but I have a few suggestions. I agree with the idea that AC should get lower as your stamina / fatigue levels go down. I also agree with the idea of how fighter / barbarian and wizard / sorcerer should be more of a play-style choice and not necessarily a class.

As far as stats are concerned, I don't believe a PC should know what their specific stats are and the exact amount of hit points they have. A warrior doesn't know that his str is 18 for example and that he has 42 HP. He knows that he's fairly strong and that he can take a few blows before passing out from the pain. I'm not exactly sure how to work this idea into a game, maybe use a shadowrun style where PCs prioritize which stats they want to favor but don't have the slightest clue as to the exact number of HP and their stats, only the DM would know.