Random Musings: Problemchild Buffs: Wardings and Boosts (really long)

Absolutely outstanding thread, Gold Roger. You did a hell of a job laying it all out. I think your reccomendations are also well thought out and presented.

I completely support your core thesis. I agree also with most points you've made. I have one challenge to your assertion in the followups. Movement spells are buffs too, and fit your guidelines excellently.

I would add the following logic to the boost template: you may cast any boost as a swift action for a duration of one round. Alternatively, you may cast a boost as a standard action with a duration of 1d4 rounds.

Somewhat obviously, the power levels for today's buffs might need to be looked at, but this univeral principle adds a couple of things: it provides you with considerably more dramatic flare, and for the duration spells it leverages something unique to rpg's: the d4. I can easily picture a table full of players with their d4's sitting on the table in front of them, dropping one pip each round. I love it.

Futher, I'd recommend one boost per player, period. Cleans up a lot of problems with a quick handwave towards consistency and equality and simplicity.

I love the way this thread has changed my perception of buffs to be closer to the evocative imagery found within medecil fantasy. The thought of placing wardings into potions, amulets, jewelry, trinkets, and rare natural elements (an old walking staff) was fantastic. The concept of a grizzled old archmage covered in mundane things that actually hold powerful wards is awesome. From the comments in the thread, I welcome the idea of tying wardings in some ways to items and item slots. I could envision a low level party, each with blessings, good luck charms, and family heirloooms, that were receptacles for mundane but effective wards. I can also picture the above mentioned 18th level lich draped in the tradional wardings of a potent and powerful caster. Many of these most powerful wards would be held or tied to equally rare and powerful foci.

At this point, I'd be disappointed not to see this idea futher fleshed out.
 

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Lanefan said:
Interesting thoughts.

A couple of other things to consider:

Perhaps limit who can cast some types of buff spells. For example, right now Wizards can get the Bull's Strength equivalent for all 6 stats...maybe split that down somehow, so Wizards can cast only a few, Clerics can cast a different few, Bards a few others, and so on. Thus, a normal party might not always have access to all the standard buffs...

This is already pretty much the case, though. None of the divine casters have all the stat buffs on their spell lists. They're all on the wiz/sorc list, but wizards don't get them for free. A wizard who learns all the buff spells (and therefore uses them) has chosen to learn those spells instead of something else, thus defining himself as a wizard who specializes in buffing. And bards and sorcerers obviously can't afford to learn them all, even if they wanted to.
 

Great ideas, great thread.

Just some thoughts: something that is common in fantasy lit is the idea of wards being torn down or stressed, not by dispells, but by being overwhelmed. Any thoughts on how to handle this with a minimal amount of book-keeping? Maybe something like they only get to be actually used (where the warded creature choses to benefit from the ward) x times before they're gone, or they have a percent chance of fading each time they're used. The x uses idea is kind of like the reactive boost suggested above.

Regarding boosts, with all this talk of swift boosts and Righteous Might, I don't want boosting your allies to be forgotten. The cleric boosting his fighter friend in the middle of combat, right before she turns to face off against the dragon can be very dramatic. These "other person" boosts should probably still take a standard action, so there's an opportunity cost. I really like the idea of the boost scaling in effect and not duration. I find it really frustrating that there's no way for the cleric to make the fighter stronger after she acquires the near-mandatory strength boost item. One boost per character is also a keeper.
 

Okay for wardings we already have some that fit well.
Longstrider (1/3 bounus of expRetreat)
Mage Armor
Greater magic weapon (+2 levels from minutes ->hrs)
Greater magic Fang (+2 levels min->hrs)
Overland Flight (+2 lvls min->hrs)
we also have the mechanic of persistant spell = +4 or +6 levels

--- new proposals for shield of faith: (deflection bonus)
Ward of faith (+1 ac +1 /5lvls, max +5) (personal) 3rd lvl
lesser ward of faith (+1 ac +1/6lvls max +3) (touch) 2nd
least ward of faith (+1 ac) (touch) 1st lvl

would a ward of Str +2 still be a 2nd lvl spell?

I also have a vauge memory of incarnum useing something similar (soulmelds) anyone have the book ?
 

Wardo said:
Great ideas, great thread.

Just some thoughts: something that is common in fantasy lit is the idea of wards being torn down or stressed, not by dispells, but by being overwhelmed. Any thoughts on how to handle this with a minimal amount of book-keeping? Maybe something like they only get to be actually used (where the warded creature choses to benefit from the ward) x times before they're gone, or they have a percent chance of fading each time they're used. The x uses idea is kind of like the reactive boost suggested above.

In fact I didn't really intend for wards to always be keyed to items. But making them linked to a focus that needs to be worn for the spell to take effect is easy and pretty much already in line with the way some spells work (shield other rings for example).

Wardo said:
Regarding boosts, with all this talk of swift boosts and Righteous Might, I don't want boosting your allies to be forgotten. The cleric boosting his fighter friend in the middle of combat, right before she turns to face off against the dragon can be very dramatic. These "other person" boosts should probably still take a standard action, so there's an opportunity cost. I really like the idea of the boost scaling in effect and not duration. I find it really frustrating that there's no way for the cleric to make the fighter stronger after she acquires the near-mandatory strength boost item. One boost per character is also a keeper.

Definitely. Boosting others should be order of the day.
 

Evilhalfling said:
would a ward of Str +2 still be a 2nd lvl spell?
I doubt it. Perhaps Level 4? Then we could have something like:

Lv 2: Boost (Str +2)
Lv 4: Warding (Str +2)
Lv 6: Mass Boost (Str +2)
Lv 8: Mass Warding (Str +2)

Remember, this Warding is lasting all day. On the other hand, I tend to raise the level for buff spells, so perhaps it should be:

Lv 1: Boost (Str +2)
Lv 3: Warding (Str +2)
Lv 5: Mass Boost (Str +2)
Lv 7: Mass Warding (Str +2)
 

Evilhalfling said:
Okay for wardings we already have some that fit well.
Longstrider (1/3 bounus of expRetreat)
Mage Armor
Greater magic weapon (+2 levels from minutes ->hrs)
Greater magic Fang (+2 levels min->hrs)
Overland Flight (+2 lvls min->hrs)
we also have the mechanic of persistant spell = +4 or +6 levels

--- new proposals for shield of faith: (deflection bonus)
Ward of faith (+1 ac +1 /5lvls, max +5) (personal) 3rd lvl
lesser ward of faith (+1 ac +1/6lvls max +3) (touch) 2nd
least ward of faith (+1 ac) (touch) 1st lvl

would a ward of Str +2 still be a 2nd lvl spell?

I also have a vauge memory of incarnum useing something similar (soulmelds) anyone have the book ?

I've got it and Soulmelds are in fact reasonably close to Wardings, except that they are a bit more flexible and not keyed into the Core Classes.
 

Re: what classes can cast what buffs:
Wolfwood2 said:
This is already pretty much the case, though. None of the divine casters have all the stat buffs on their spell lists. They're all on the wiz/sorc list, but wizards don't get them for free. A wizard who learns all the buff spells (and therefore uses them) has chosen to learn those spells instead of something else, thus defining himself as a wizard who specializes in buffing. And bards and sorcerers obviously can't afford to learn them all, even if they wanted to.
I'm suggesting limit it further, such that only one (or at most two) class can cast each type of buff. Right now, Str. seems to be on everyone's list...should it be? The only obvious ones to keep are that each caster class should have access to the buff for its own primary stat e.g. Cha. for Bards, Int. for Wizards, etc.

Another option might be to have some of the buffs only castable on self, and others only on target that is not self...so (for example) a Wizard could buff her own Int. but could only buff someone else's Dex....?

Keep the ideas coming, people - this is fun! :)

Lanefan
 

I like this, and may likely steal it

Simple fix for today?

Change all buff spells immediately to duration 1d4 rounds; these are boosts. Add rule, a character may only ever receive a single boost at any given time.

Either feat (Create Warding), or inherent ability. The caster can either create a warding that lasts until he next prepares his spells or 24 hours (which comes first). The warding may then be 'charged" with any known boost that the caster knows. However, casting a boost as a warding increases the level of the spell by (+1 (+2?) level).

A character may have about his person a maximum of wardings equal to ... 4, cha bonus, level/3 ???

Additionally, the caster may use this feat(ability) to create a magical token. This token may store a singe boost until used, and may be used by whomever the caster bestowed the token upon. Use brew potion description for costs of creation.
 

Gold Roger said:
In fact I didn't really intend for wards to always be keyed to items. But making them linked to a focus that needs to be worn for the spell to take effect is easy and pretty much already in line with the way some spells work (shield other rings for example).

It definitely opens up issues with how wardings interact with magic items. To what degree are they the product of a spell one casts on oneself, and to what degree are they the result of spells bound to talismans one wears?

I dislike buffing items, just as I dislike buffing spells (though they're not as bad for recalculating on the fly, of course.) And wardings could interact with these somehow.

On the subject of wardings-as-spells, I would be tempted to make them not spell slots which last 24 hours, but long-term bindings a caster could put up with big ceremony which remained as is until they were dispelled or voluntarily abandoned in favor of a new warding. Maybe they need to be replenished every few months or whatever, but it's not wake up, study spellbook, cast Day Long Mage Armor the round that the old spell would elapse. Rather, it's a long-term part of being protected by being cloaked in spells. This allows more flexibility (perhaps more than is desired by some) during gameplay, too. If in an in-game day the PCs find out they're facing undead and they have downtime, they could switch all their wardings to anti-undead wardings, without waiting for an in-game day to pass.

-C.
 

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