Random Question - Creatures with powers that resist the prone effect?

[Mapache]

This is how a dragon fight should go, it's not a bunch of people surrounding a dragon and gooning it (well, white dragons maybe) but they tend to fight on their terms, and their terms are unpleasent for you.

"Gooning it" is how it goes if the PCs can knock it prone consistently. Proning completely wrecks dragons that are supposed to rely on mobility, because it keeps them from flying. The PCs then pig-pile and smash it to bits with CA to boot. Even if it's willing to eat a bunch of OAs to escape after standing up (and possibly having to spend a precious Standard Action for a mere move), if the party has a Fighter or somebody else that can stop it, it's still not going anywhere. I've seen fights against a blue dragon twice, and both times it was totally crippled, first by my Runepriest using an at-will Immobilize, and the second time by repeated proning.

 

[the Jester]

As an aside, does it make sense that most critters that walk on all fours would likely have that "Surefooted" ability?

No.

I strongly recommend against doing this; you are reacting to your players having an effective tactic. This is basically exactly what you are trying to avoid, a reactive nerf to the pcs' abilities.

 

[DracoSuave]

"Gooning it" is how it goes if the PCs can knock it prone consistently. Proning completely wrecks dragons that are supposed to rely on mobility, because it keeps them from flying. The PCs then pig-pile and smash it to bits with CA to boot. Even if it's willing to eat a bunch of OAs to escape after standing up (and possibly having to spend a precious Standard Action for a mere move), if the party has a Fighter or somebody else that can stop it, it's still not going anywhere. I've seen fights against a blue dragon twice, and both times it was totally crippled, first by my Runepriest using an at-will Immobilize, and the second time by repeated proning.

That's why you design the encounter effectively. There's more to dragons than 'PCs have abilities, let's have a fight!'.

In the case of the blue dragon, they will never purposefully close in to the PCs if they can help it. So how do you create an encounter that plays to the Blue Dragon's strengths?

Well, at young, the dragon's pretty dull, but at adult, the dragon has tricks that make you think twice about a constant 'prone you' barrage. At adult, the blue dragon's standard attack includes a push. That's definately a way to get the fighter off him.

More importantly tho... at Elder and ancient... go ahead. Everyone comes in close. The dragon doesn't care; he has a close AoE stun that deals damage that he can use at-will.

Not to mention, a blue dragon's breath doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity--it doesn't even have an attack type!

But then again, what is a blue dragon doing on the ground if it can help it? With fly 10 hover, it's attacking a party from above, and doing so with devilish glee. Blue dragons are actually a TPW against a melee-heavy group. Once a party gets it down to the ground, yes, it should be a problem for the dragon, but getting it to the ground should be a pain in the ass. Doable, challenging, and THAT is the real game of that encounter.

I think that a mistake a lot of DMs make with dragons is the 'Well, he needs to attack this round so...' and think that their standard actions need to be attacks for them to be effective. That's far from the truth. While red and white dragons should be going toe to toe, black, blue, and green dragons are better suited to hit and run tactics. They have abilities to get them OUT of trouble, and punish those that try to put them into trouble. Most of the time, these 'easy' encounters are because the dragon isn't being used according to its role.

 

[aurance]

SOLO monster does not mean it is supposed to be thrown against a party alone.

Actually, yes it does.

DMG p. 55 "Solo monsters are specifically designed to appear as single opponents against a group of PCs of the same level." The rest of that section is also illuminating.

Of course it doesn't mean you can't include other monsters in the encounter, but a solo should be designed so that it can be used alone.

 

[Shadowslayer]

No.

I strongly recommend against doing this; you are reacting to your players having an effective tactic. This is basically exactly what you are trying to avoid, a reactive nerf to the pcs' abilities.

Do you really think so? By "surefootedness" I mean an ability that allows a save to avoid being prone....a 50% chance. Applied to 4 legged creatures, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch. Given that most of my encounters are vs humanoids, I'm not thinking its too much of a nerf. But I'm open to discussion.

 

[On Puget Sound]

surefootedness so broadly applied would be like deciding to use mostly constructs because your players' dailies are poison attacks, or deciding that all reptiles should have resist fire because that is your players' weapon of choice. Way too big a nerf; expect them to ask for a retrain to get rid of their knockdown powers. If their concept of cool is bowling over all the bad guys, let them do it. Occasionally , have a bad guy that doesn't go down, or stay down, or care if it's down.

I actually find prone to be a fairly weak debuff; I have a barbarian in one game and a monk in another (both the same player btw) who both do a lot of it, and my monsters have little trouble with it.
Move: stand up
Standard: charge

 

[the Jester]

Do you really think so? By "surefootedness" I mean an ability that allows a save to avoid being prone....a 50% chance. Applied to 4 legged creatures, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch. Given that most of my encounters are vs humanoids, I'm not thinking its too much of a nerf. But I'm open to discussion.

I absolutely think so.

Having a large number of monsters have a 50% chance to ignore whatever cool thing you're trying to do to them is a drag. Especially when it is clearly a response to an earlier encounter in which that ability proved useful.

I can see giving it to some specific creatures, sure, but 4e goes out of its way to avoid blanket "all creatures with this body shape have x ability" pronouncements. Even undead immunity to disease has exceptions.

Think about it: you're talking about all mounts, dragons, drakes, displacer beasts, spiders (more than 4 legs, but hey, I assume the principle applies), beetles, scorpions, dracotaurs, centaurs, manticores, griffons, etc, etc, etc.

Ultimately, do what you want, but I think this is a terrible idea.

 

[Shadowslayer]

I absolutely think so.

Having a large number of monsters have a 50% chance to ignore whatever cool thing you're trying to do to them is a drag. Especially when it is clearly a response to an earlier encounter in which that ability proved useful.

I can see giving it to some specific creatures, sure, but 4e goes out of its way to avoid blanket "all creatures with this body shape have x ability" pronouncements. Even undead immunity to disease has exceptions.

Think about it: you're talking about all mounts, dragons, drakes, displacer beasts, spiders (more than 4 legs, but hey, I assume the principle applies), beetles, scorpions, dracotaurs, centaurs, manticores, griffons, etc, etc, etc.

Ultimately, do what you want, but I think this is a terrible idea.

Fair enough. Not saying I'll never use it when it makes sense though. But I get what you mean.

 

[Nullzone]

Don't design monsters to simply negate the tactics of your party; make them choose whether or not the tactic is worth it. Combine this with a way to give your solo some breathing room. For a low-heroic dragon, I might try some of the following:

- An IR tail swipe attack that pushes 1 square and knocks prone on a melee hit
- A close burst 3 wing buffet minor action (recharge 5 6) that pushes everyone 3 squares
- A ranged gaze attack that gives an enemy -2 to hit outside 3 squares
- A bloodied effect that causes a small amount of damage to all adjacent creatures when damaged (not sure if this is thematically viable on a green dragon though)

Maybe not all of these at once (although solo depending, I would use them all at once), but hopefully you get the idea. Make the choice to disable the solo meaningful by creating a risk involved with doing so.

 

[Klaus]

Don't design monsters to simply negate the tactics of your party; make them choose whether or not the tactic is worth it. Combine this with a way to give your solo some breathing room. For a low-heroic dragon, I might try some of the following:

- An IR tail swipe attack that pushes 1 square and knocks prone on a melee hit
- A close burst 3 wing buffet minor action (recharge 5 6) that pushes everyone 3 squares
- A ranged gaze attack that gives an enemy -2 to hit outside 3 squares
- A bloodied effect that causes a small amount of damage to all adjacent creatures when damaged (not sure if this is thematically viable on a green dragon though)

Maybe not all of these at once (although solo depending, I would use them all at once), but hopefully you get the idea. Make the choice to disable the solo meaningful by creating a risk involved with doing so.

This is some good tips.

If your party is knock-prone-happy, consider giving a triggered immediate reaction that happens when the creature is knocked prone, such as the tail swipe suggested above.

Other creatures could be given a "doesn't grant CA while prone" ability, or an immediate interrupt while prone that let's it divert an incoming attack towards an adjacent PC.