D&D 5E (2024) Ranged Builds Thread

[FrogReaver]

Piercer feat
I did some math on piercer feat. Not every case, but should be enough to get an idea. The chart details a 2 attack PC and what outcome on the first d4, d6, etc that they choose to reroll. The highlighted value is the optimal decision. As you can see it's fairly close to using the reroll anytime when the damage might increase (2 or less on a d4, 3 or less on a d6, etc). I then combine the effect it grants on critical and the reroll at the bottom.

On the Champion
Champion over 2 attacks with d6 weapons and piercers only adds ~2.86 dpr from piercer feat. A non Champion adds ~1.92 from the feat. ~0.87 comes from the rerolls. Altogether even on the champion extra die crit damage for a hand crossbow character is adding just a little over 1 dpr per attack. The reroll adds a little less than 1dpr as well. Add about +1 damage per extra attack.

Compared to GWM
At level 5 the GWM on a Fighter just adds about 6*.6 dpr = +3.6 DPR. It provides similar enough early numbers to GWM. As you add more attack or find advantage from other sources the value of GWM starts to skyrocket. Still, for a level 5-10 campaign, piercer isn't looking bad in comparison.

Note on Battlemaster
Superiority dice at level 5 can deal a total of 18 damage if used on damage maneuvers per short rest (ignoring precision as without a very high damage attack, it's not nearly as good).

If a short rest period was 3 rounds: +6 DPR
If a short rest period was 10 rounds: +1.8 DPR

With Piercer: +3.8 DPR to + 9 DPR

Battlemaster wins
At least for most levels 5-10. About equal in the worst case but potentially massively ahead anytime there is not alot of combat rounds per short rest. Essentially it takes magical weapons with +die damage to really start equalizing.

Elven Accuracy
Champion with Elven Accuracy helps, but this is also a ton of feats to try to grab, sharpshooter, elven accuracy, crossbow expertise, piercer. Even with the extra free feat, that's going to be a level 8 fighter to get it all.

Conclusion
Assuming the same feats on both builds I'd go with Battlemaster just because of the control options. Damage wise I think they will be close enough. Champion by the 2nd fighting style and a +die magic would could actually get an advantage here IMO. I think later tier battlemaster will be better just because the superiority die every turn is likely to be better than champions heroic inspiration given your steady stream of advantage from vex.

 

[mellored]

Note on Battlemaster
Superiority dice at level 5 can deal a total of 18 damage if used on damage maneuvers per short rest (ignoring precision as without a very high damage attack, it's not nearly as good).

Precision attack does more damage.
Turning 0 damage into 1d8+dex(+proficiency with GWM).
Even if you still miss half the time, that's better damage.

It's just damage, no fancy effect, but more damage.

Assuming the same feats on both builds I'd go with Battlemaster just because of the control options. Damage wise I think they will be close enough. Champion by the 2nd fighting style and a +die magic would could actually get an advantage here IMO.

Add Champion's advantage on initiative.
Like 1 extra turn per day.

 

[FrogReaver]

Precision attack does more damage.
Turning 0 damage into 1d8+dex(+proficiency with GWM).
Even if you still miss half the time, that's better damage.

It's just damage, no fancy effect, but more damage.

1. For the dual crossbow build it's 1d6+dex. You cannot miss connecting with precision over half the time with this damage output and still outdamage the normal damage maneuvers.

2. Due to your high accuracy from vex's advantage I don't expect that you'll miss often enough to use precision very often and when you do it's likely not adding more than about +1 damage over the normal damage die due to precision not being a guaranteed hit in this setup.

3. IMO. You'll probably do more damage if you just use some +damage manuevers on crits than on precision.

4. More importantly, the kind of more damage we are talking about is negligible. Likely less than +1 DPR for the dual handcrossbow fighter to use precision over +damage, assuming no crits. Even 1 crit in a short rest period equalizes that gain.

The one use I really see for precision for this build is that it can allow your first attack to connect to start the vex advantage cycle. Precision is much better if you are Longbow+GWM for example.

Add Champion's advantage on initiative.
Like 1 extra turn per day.

Sure! But battlemaster gets the manuever that adds initiative. Isn't that mostly a wash?

 

[mellored]

The one use I really see for precision is that it can allow your first attack to connect to start the vex advantage cycle.

Or if you change targets.
Of course, you can take both.

Sure! But battlemaster gets the manuever that adds initiative. Isn't that mostly a wash?

It's a die less for the battlemaster to do that, and depends on the number of fights per short rest.

It would still be nice to see the numbers.

 

[FrogReaver]

Or if you change targets.
Of course, you can take both.

It's a die less for the battlemaster to do that, and depends on the number of fights per short rest.

It would still be nice to see the numbers.

I've been thinking about how to actually compare initiative bonuses to damage. For a single PC vs a single enemy I'm certain it can be done, but when one adds in #m PCs and #n enemies, it becomes much less clear.

For example with just 1 allied PC and 1 enemy, winning initiative may not result in you ever seeing another turn and in the enemy still getting the same number of turns.

A=you
B=ally
C=enemy

Initiative order case:
ACB.

Enemy dies on B's turn. A, C, B all get the same number of turns.
Enemy dies on A's turn. A gets 1 more turn than C and B.

Thus, even in this case, A winning initiative doesn't mean he gets an extra turn over anyone. And it only gets much more complex when adding in even more allies and more enemies.

It's certainly a problem I'd like to solve, but I don't have the solution yet. Am open to ideas though.

 

[mellored]

I've been thinking about how to actually compare initiative bonuses to damage. For a single PC vs a single enemy I'm certain it can be done, but when one adds in #m PCs and #n enemies, it becomes much less clear.

For example with just 1 allied PC and 1 enemy, winning initiative may not result in you ever seeing another turn and in the enemy still getting the same number of turns.

A=you
B=ally
C=enemy

Initiative order
ACB.

Enemy dies on B's turn. A, C, B all get the same number of turns.
Enemy dies on A's turn. A gets 1 more turn than C and B.

Thus, even in this case, A winning initiative doesn't mean he gets an extra turn over anyone. And it only gets much more complex when adding in even more allies and more enemies.

It's certainly a problem I'd like to solve, but I don't have the solution yet. Am open to ideas though.

Possibilities that you want (A gets an extra turn)/ total possibilities.

• number of times you roll initiative per day (4?)
• damage A does in a round.

And I would assume each outcome (C dies after A just as often as C dies after B).

Ratio would be a little different for a controller who does half the damage vs a Beserker barbarian, but these are close enough damage that I don't think it matters.

 

[FrogReaver]

Possibilities that you want (A gets an extra turn)/ total possibilities.

• number of times you roll initiative per day (4?)
• damage A does in a round.

And I would assume each outcome (C dies after A just as often as C dies after B).

Ratio would be a little different for a controller who does half the damage vs a Beserker barbarian, but these are close enough damage that I don't think it matters.

What if A's extra turn comes at the expense of his ally B's extra turn?

Also, what if there are 2 or more enemies?

That is the concept of an extra turn starts to fall apart when you move beyond the 1v1 scenario and i don't know what we should actually be measuring instead.

 

[mellored]

What if A's extra turn comes at the expense of his ally B's extra turn?

A still did more damage.
I mean, i can go both ways. Even with advantage, Battlemaster will still go first and kill before A gets a turn.
Just not as often.

Also, what if there are 2 or more enemies?

last enemy to die.
And they focus fire, because teamwork.

That is the concept of an extra turn starts to fall apart when you move beyond the 1v1 scenario and i don't know what we should actually be measuring instead.

Average damage delt.

At least that was what you where comparing.

 

[FrogReaver]

A still did more damage.
I mean, i can go both ways. Even with advantage, Battlemaster will still go first and kill before A gets a turn.

It's meaningless if it means your ally did less because of it and no enemies would have otherwise done more.

Or more importantly, it would imply that a really high initiative ally would lower your DPR. That cannot be right!

Just not as often.
last enemy to die.

No idea what this means. I'm asking how do you count having extra turns here if you end up in initiative between the 2 enemies? You might kill one earlier, but you won't the other. Is that +1/2 a turn when that happens or something else?

And they focus fire, because teamwork.
Average damage delt.

Which goes back to the issue of some of the extra damage you are doing from initiative being at the expense of your allies, with no difference on enemy actions.

At least that was what you where comparing.

Okay, then going first isn't extra DPR so it adds 0 to the calcs. Problem solved.

 

[FrogReaver]

Party initiative order is one of the primary drivers of after action damage reports. But that's because enemies have a finite amount of hp and so PC's are competing to drain it in such reports. Doing a larger share there automatically means your allies did less just because you did more. That's much different than what DPR measures (the amount you contribute per round) and overall less useful than DPR IMO. Those 2 things should not be conflated.

I'm personally good with trying to estimate what having higher initiative would mean in terms of equivalent DPR increase, but not in terms of after action damage reports (even expected value ones). They are a very skewed metric for comparison.