Ranged Options for All Classes

5ekyu

Hero
The main issue to me is the disparity of options. Unless you are a niche build, there's no reason to not be a dex build for most campaigns.

If I have a 20 dex and standard studded leather + shield wielding a rapier I'm doing exactly as much melee damage as the strength based version, I don't take penalties for stealth, my dex save is far better, as is my initiative. Oh, and my ranged attacks are good as well.

Strength based? Umm ... my AC is better when/if I can afford plate mail (up until then it's probably about even with the dex guy). By 5%. Yippee? Unless I've put significant points into dex, I suck at stealth, my dex save stinks, my initiative is awful. I'd probably be okay with that, but then my ranged attacks have one fifth the effective range and limited to one per round as well*. I guess I can grapple ... except I can't remember the last time that came up in a game over the past four decades or so I've played. I'm better at climbing, but the dex guy will probably just rely on this well oiled team I keep hearing about.

So I should do a barbarian instead. Yep, big tough barbarian. Raar. Except do I really need to be big and tough? What if I just tanked dex and put everything int dex and con? Huh. My AC gets up as high as most fighters in full plate after a while. I don't get to be reckless and my damage is ever so slightly lower, but I could be a stealthy ninja barbarian firing death from the shadows. Strength based? I have to split between strength dex and con. If I want my barbarian to be charismatic or smart I'm SOL.

In any case, reinforced bows bring things more or less in balance and don't hurt anything. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

* unless you spend every other round doing something other than attacking which somehow means I'm getting more attacks or something? Still confused by that one.
In a game where the things you describe are the norm and to the extreme that you describe them **and** where that is leading to problems that need fixing, a house rule seems like a good solution to those problems.

But from the posts in this thread I think I can safely say my games play through very very differently than yours do from quite a few very significant ways and I dont have the problem that you see a need to house rule to fix.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
You've had interesting games. Grappling (and its close cousins shove, shove aside, and knock prone) come up in around 2/3 of the 5E sessions I've played and GMed in the last 2 years.

Occasionally, lack of strength has blocked progress. The DEX 20 character with the rapier is stopped by a simple stuck door or heavy portcullis.
Mine more like 1 in 3 fights see grapple/shove but it's a self-fulfilling prophesy.

If the encounters or play style leads towards not using strength solutions Then the builds will move towards non-strength solutions and that will then drive the choices to non-strength approaches round and round and round with chickens before cartons of eggs in one massive "reign of error."
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
There's also always just getting support from other party members. Fly for instance, is a 3rd level spell.

Exactly.

Not to mention getting 7 points of damage from the fighter with the bow.

As far as we’re concerned, it’s not really about who does more damage. If you need to do 20 points of damage and one character does 13 and the other 7, the monster is just as dead as if they both did 10. Without that fighter it would have taken another round. And even if it takes one more round, it would have taken two without him.

They don’t all have to do the same amount of damage in every combat, some circumstances favor one character, others favor another.

Yes, it’s a good idea that everybody has ranged options and that’s something I explain to everybody in my campaigns. Combat will frequently start at range, and where possible, those creatures will be using cover too. The primary tactic is to take cover and use ranged weapons until you can find a way to close for melee and finish them off. Or they try to close first.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Short version:
I don't tell people how to play their characters. I do have a simple rule to give strength based characters ranged attack options.

Longer version:
In my experience some people that play spellcasters enjoy the support role (at least now and then) and others just want to blow **** up. It's not my role as a DM to make them be supporting characters that enable the rest of the team. Yeah, teamwork is great and something I encourage it, but I have to face reality as well. One person's enjoyment of the game shouldn't be reliant on another person's taking the right spells.

I also try to avoid tailoring my encounters to my players, I model them on what makes sense for the story. So if it makes sense for the story that they fight an ancient red dragon and the wizard is completely focused on fire spells, then they still fight that dragon (although I will try to give them plenty of foreshadowing). In this case the wizard isn't as effective as they could be because of their choice.

I do make allowances for strength based characters to be reasonably effective in situations where ranged attacks are the only option. I allow strength based bows. If they don't purchase them, so be it. What I don't do is to force Bob who's playing the wizard who never casts support spells to change how he plays his character.

Yes, and one of the realities they face is that they could have done better with teamwork. If they choose not to, so be it.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Well, that all depends on the DM, doesn't it? Theory and practice *can* merge together if that is what the DM decides to focus on, or make more commonplace based upon what kinds of encounters they offer up.

Obviously if a party doesn't have wizards, or doesn't have spells that assist movement, or doesn't have magic items that allow for different types of movement, the DM hopefully learns to recognize this hole in the party's capability and doesn't create encounters intended to exploit it. Unless of course they exploit it prior to large battles in smaller scnearos such that they are informing the party that they *have* this big hole in their capabilities and that they may want to find ways to fill it.

At the end of the day its really part of the DMs job to know what their players and PCs can do, and make encounters to challenge them but not intentionally screw them (unless of course your table is very much that style of 'DM vs players' wargamey-esque table that desires that kind of conflict and resolution-- which is a perfectly fine way to play assuming both sides know that's how they're playing.) And what we had here was a really good lesson that a DM and players learned... unfortunately it just occurred at not the best time. But going forward, it will only make their table stronger and better prepared for games in the future.

The PCs in my campaign come upon things they can’t do all the time. It’s not DM vs Player, it’s characters vs the world.

Just because the come across an ancient unplundered tomb doesn’t necessarily mean they have the means to plunder it. They might not even be able to get in. If they want to, they figure out a way to do it. Maybe they visit a sage, hire a wizard, hire a rogue, wait until they are higher level, whatever.

The PCs explore their world any way they want to. It’s not my job to tell them where they can and can’t go. And the world is the world. I design it, in part, but it’s not designed to make it easy for this group of PCs. It’s designed with history, both written and that of 30 years of other PCs exploring it. It’s a mix of published, homebrew, and random. Challenges are meant to be overcome. But it would be boring if every encounter were custom designed for this group of PCs and their strengths. Overcoming challenges is often about overcoming your weaknesses.

My encounters aren’t created to exploit game mechanics, class features, or whatever. They are designed to make sense in the context of the world and who created the challenge. If the lord of an ancient land wanted a trap-ridden tomb to prevent others from robbing it, then it will be as deadly as it can be. If they could afford mechanical traps, magic traps, constructs, undead, etc, then yes. Poison - that is real poison that kills you if you don’t save, of course. And you should expect it (as my players do) and they don’t go trying to rob such a tomb unless they are really greedy or really need to. And they do it with lots of preparation and creativity.

The intent is not to screw them. But they have to be smart and pick their battles, and plan and prepare for the tough ones.

Like the first tomb in Raiders of the Lost Ark. it was clear that the unprepared died quick deaths. Indy was prepared, and a bit lucky. But the traps weren’t made easier for him. He was just better at identifying the traps and avoiding them.

So I guess I do know what my players and their PCs can and can’t do, and they deal with it accordingly. The encounters challenge them, with the understanding that not everything, or every combat, is winnable and that they may need to retreat, regroup, and come back.

In the OP I think he would have been better off not altering the encounter, and based on the initial description, I probably would have had the monster flee when it took too much damage. And they probably would have learned that they needed to do better about having some ranged weapon options, as well as alternative movement options, and maybe find a way to corner it in more advantageous terrain. But that will depend on their players and whether they would complain that he didn’t design it well for them. On the other hand they would already be well aware that their lack of ranged weapons was a hindrance.

Of course, I’m not big on the BBEG and the “final combat scene” thing so I’m biased. But I generally don’t design encounters for the villain to stand his ground and fight for the death. It’s up to the PCs to do that, and when they do, they always manage it in a manner I don’t expect. There are some obvious exceptions, when the purpose is to destroy a given monster, like an evil dragon. But even that is really, really hard to do without it getting away.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Well, that all depends on the DM, doesn't it? Theory and practice *can* merge together if that is what the DM decides to focus on, or make more commonplace based upon what kinds of encounters they offer up.

Obviously if a party doesn't have wizards, or doesn't have spells that assist movement, or doesn't have magic items that allow for different types of movement, the DM hopefully learns to recognize this hole in the party's capability and doesn't create encounters intended to exploit it. Unless of course they exploit it prior to large battles in smaller scnearos such that they are informing the party that they *have* this big hole in their capabilities and that they may want to find ways to fill it.

At the end of the day its really part of the DMs job to know what their players and PCs can do, and make encounters to challenge them but not intentionally screw them (unless of course your table is very much that style of 'DM vs players' wargamey-esque table that desires that kind of conflict and resolution-- which is a perfectly fine way to play assuming both sides know that's how they're playing.) And what we had here was a really good lesson that a DM and players learned... unfortunately it just occurred at not the best time. But going forward, it will only make their table stronger and better prepared for games in the future.

The PCs in my campaign come upon things they can’t do all the time. It’s not DM vs Player, it’s characters vs the world.

Just because the come across an ancient unplundered tomb doesn’t necessarily mean they have the means to plunder it. They might not even be able to get in. If they want to, they figure out a way to do it. Maybe they visit a sage, hire a wizard, hire a rogue, wait until they are higher level, whatever.

The PCs explore their world any way they want to. It’s not my job to tell them where they can and can’t go. And the world is the world. I design it, in part, but it’s not designed to make it easy for this group of PCs. It’s designed with history, both written and that of 30 years of other PCs exploring it. It’s a mix of published, homebrew, and random. Challenges are meant to be overcome. But it would be boring if every encounter were custom designed for this group of PCs and their strengths. Overcoming challenges is often about overcoming your weaknesses.

My encounters aren’t created to exploit game mechanics, class features, or whatever. They are designed to make sense in the context of the world and who created the challenge. If the lord of an ancient land wanted a trap-ridden tomb to prevent others from robbing it, then it will be as deadly as it can be. If they could afford mechanical traps, magic traps, constructs, undead, etc, then yes. Poison - that is real poison that kills you if you don’t save, of course. And you should expect it (as my players do) and they don’t go trying to rob such a tomb unless they are really greedy or really need to. And they do it with lots of preparation and creativity.

The intent is not to screw them. But they have to be smart and pick their battles, and plan and prepare for the tough ones.

Like the first tomb in Raiders of the Lost Ark. it was clear that the unprepared died quick deaths. Indy was prepared, and a bit lucky. But the traps weren’t made easier for him. He was just better at identifying the traps and avoiding them.

So I guess I do know what my players and their PCs can and can’t do, and they deal with it accordingly. The encounters challenge them, with the understanding that not everything, or every combat, is winnable and that they may need to retreat, regroup, and come back.

In the OP I think he would have been better off not altering the encounter, and based on the initial description, I probably would have had the monster flee when it took too much damage. And they probably would have learned that they needed to do better about having some ranged weapon options, as well as alternative movement options, and maybe find a way to corner it in more advantageous terrain. But that will depend on their players and whether they would complain that he didn’t design it well for them. On the other hand they would already be well aware that their lack of ranged weapons was a hindrance.

Of course, I’m not big on the BBEG and the “final combat scene” thing so I’m biased. But I generally don’t design encounters for the villain to stand his ground and fight for the death. It’s up to the PCs to do that, and when they do, they always manage it in a manner I don’t expect. There are some obvious exceptions, when the purpose is to destroy a given monster, like an evil dragon. But even that is really, really hard to do without it getting away.
 

Oofta

Legend
You've had interesting games. Grappling (and its close cousins shove, shove aside, and knock prone) come up in around 2/3 of the 5E sessions I've played and GMed in the last 2 years.

Occasionally, lack of strength has blocked progress. The DEX 20 character with the rapier is stopped by a simple stuck door or heavy portcullis.

I've played with many different groups in both home campaigns an AL. Shove was a thing occasional before the official ruling on shield master came out, but the last time I saw grapple used it was in 3.5 when it was much, much better tactically. Even then it was just one guy who used it on a regular basis. There's probably been another instance I'm just forgetting.

As far as the heavy door, that's what potions, magic and teamwork are for. Oh, and don't even get me started on how you can ignore strength and find gauntlets/belt and suddenly you're the strongest person around. :erm:
 

Oofta

Legend
Yes, and one of the realities they face is that they could have done better with teamwork. If they choose not to, so be it.

There's a limit to the magic "teamwork". Depending on the campaign, I've thrown dragons (or wyverns or dragon hybrids) with archers/ranged attackers on their backs on a pretty regular basis. There was never a reason for them to get closer than 50 ft (so no light thrown weapons) and this started long before fly was an option.

Sometimes fly was cast because the fighter was much more effective going toe-to-toe. Sometimes the group cast a spell that forced enemies to the ground. But if I hadn't allowed mighty/strength bows, much of the time several of the PCs would have been making 1 attack per round at disadvantage a lot. No amount of "teamwork" would have changed that dynamic.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
There's a limit to the magic "teamwork". Depending on the campaign, I've thrown dragons (or wyverns or dragon hybrids) with archers/ranged attackers on their backs on a pretty regular basis. There was never a reason for them to get closer than 50 ft (so no light thrown weapons) and this started long before fly was an option.

Sometimes fly was cast because the fighter was much more effective going toe-to-toe. Sometimes the group cast a spell that forced enemies to the ground. But if I hadn't allowed mighty/strength bows, much of the time several of the PCs would have been making 1 attack per round at disadvantage a lot. No amount of "teamwork" would have changed that dynamic.
And the party couldn't retreat to a more tactically advantageous position?
 

Oofta

Legend
And the party couldn't retreat to a more tactically advantageous position?

Not always. There was a war on, where are you going to go? Go hide somewhere and the bad guys just ignore you and ransack the city.

I rarely do "dungeon crawls" so many fights were out in the open or protecting a town/castle/city, escorting a supply wagon or ambushing one, etc.
 

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