Ranged Options for All Classes

All assuming you have those spells prepped and the slot available. Which they did sometimes.

Look you have been big on talking about the melee focused guys being essentially screwed by dragons. If your spellcasters cannot do something to mitigate the flying dragon with the flyby attack and hideously long distance movement out in the open, then your whole party is likely screwed. Dragons have a high intelligence - catching your party unprepared will result in the death of the party.

Other times they were on their sixth fight of the day fighting wyvern riders and the spells were not available any more.

Wyvern riders are much easier to deal with - for the spellcasters and even the melee types. Typically they come within close enough range that a readied action should be able to get them without being at disadvantage. Wyverns themselves make no attack unless they can get at least within 10' of you, and they do not have flyby attack. Anything which makes either the mount or the rider fall prone will make the attacker fall, so that's double opportunities for someone to miss a saving throw on a prone-inducing spell or effect. In addition, if you can force movement on the mount, the rider must make a save or fall.

There are times I think people play a different game than I do. Spell casters always fully loaded with just the right spells while in a dungeon knowing exactly what they're going to face.

Not all flying creatures are boss fights, not all flyers are dragons

No but people mentioned both a boss fight and dragons in this thread so it was natural to reply to the scenarios presented.

I don't expect the spellcasters to have just the right spells prepared (though this is in fact one primary reason for keeping scrolls and potions on hand) - just as I don't expect the melee types to have just the right attacks prepared. Why is it OK for the spellcasters to be caught less effective than expected in this same scenario, but not OK for the melee fighters to be as unprepared? Seems a double standard to me. If your spellcasters cannot think of something they can effectively do against flyers, why are you expecting the melee types to be better prepared than the rest?
 

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Look you have been big on talking about the melee focused guys being essentially screwed by dragons. If your spellcasters cannot do something to mitigate the flying dragon with the flyby attack and hideously long distance movement out in the open, then your whole party is likely screwed. Dragons have a high intelligence - catching your party unprepared will result in the death of the party.



Wyvern riders are much easier to deal with - for the spellcasters and even the melee types. Typically they come within close enough range that a readied action should be able to get them without being at disadvantage. Wyverns themselves make no attack unless they can get at least within 10' of you, and they do not have flyby attack. Anything which makes either the mount or the rider fall prone will make the attacker fall, so that's double opportunities for someone to miss a saving throw on a prone-inducing spell or effect. In addition, if you can force movement on the mount, the rider must make a save or fall.



No but people mentioned both a boss fight and dragons in this thread so it was natural to reply to the scenarios presented.

I don't expect the spellcasters to have just the right spells prepared (though this is in fact one primary reason for keeping scrolls and potions on hand) - just as I don't expect the melee types to have just the right attacks prepared. Why is it OK for the spellcasters to be caught less effective than expected in this same scenario, but not OK for the melee fighters to be as unprepared? Seems a double standard to me. If your spellcasters cannot think of something they can effectively do against flyers, why are you expecting the melee types to be better prepared than the rest?

I didn't realize that it was such an unusual concept that sometimes enemies that are not dragons can fly. Sometimes flying creatures are used as mounts. Sometimes there are multiple creatures with the ability to fly and no single spell could target them all. Not all fights are boss fights, and some don't happen in places chosen by the PCs. Sometimes the PCs face more than 2-3 fights between long rests. Sometimes that PCs know what they're going to be up against and can prep, other times they don't.

Now I agree that if the strength based types (not all melee types are) can only use javelins I'd have to significantly lower the threat level. Which is why I took the radical step of giving them bows that used strength so they could reasonably contribute, even if they were better at melee.

In the recent campaign, yes it was about dragons. But flying enemies, enemies far above the PCs, enemies that are mounted mounted arches a'la mongol hordes that ride in just close enough to fire an arrow and then ride away, enemies that cannot be reached for any number of reasons are not uncommon in my campaigns. It's called "having a variety of challenges".

Sometimes it's a boss fight, sometimes it's just been a rough Tuesday and the casters are low on spells and don't magically just "know" to have the right ones left.
 

Uh, people have been making that comment to you for about 10 pages now...

Yeah, I'm such a radical. Following the guidelines on how many encounters between long rests, doing adventures that aren't dungeon crawls, occasionally fighting dragons out in the open in terrain of the dragon's choosing not the PCs, throwing the unexpected and unusual at the players, not assuming that they're going to have just the right spell available. Making one simple house rule to make strength based PCs feel worthwhile.

Yep, I'm the worst.
 

Wow. There is a lot of "you are doing it wrong posts" going on here, but no specifics on what I can do to do it right. Lucky for me I am proactive and found some answers. In case anyone else reading this thread has had the same issue, here are some constructive suggestions:

Spells. The paladin gets a fair amount, and while it is tempting to save them for those sweet divine smites, there are a few that can really help you out against ranged opponents.

Command. It has a range of 60' and the first suggested command is 'Approach'. This will force the creature to close with you if they fail their Wis save.
Compelled Duel. I have never really given this spell much serious consideration, but it can be pretty useful at higher levels. It only has a range of 30', but can be cast as a bonus action and last for a minute. The target does get a Wis save to resist initially, and it gets additional saves to try to move away from you after, but it doesn't end the spell effect.
Banishment. Range of 60' and forces a Cha save or they are gone for up to a minute. This would hopefully give the paladin some time to figure out how to get to where it is going to reappear and get a smite ready for its return. He will have to wait till 13th level before he can get it though.

Auras and mantles. They are all concentration, so you just cast one of them then stand around providing a buff (while shooting off some pretty minor damage with a bow), but it is something.

The first two are 1st level spells, but they are worth casting on even the toughest of foes. Even a dragon of the appropriate level might fail against these 30% to 40% of the time and if they have to spend a Legendary save against a 1st level spell, great! It was still worth it.

I’m not sure I would call them “doing things wrong” posts. I think it’s a different opinion on what’s important, what constitutes a “trap” and things like that.

First off, the only edition that’s been well designed to eliminate “trap” options is 4e, but only if your focus is on a balance in combat abilities that apply to every combat.

For many of us, who have more of a big picture approach, causing less than you maximum damage in a single type of combat situation isn’t a trap - it’s a feature.

I have no expectation that my Paladin would be even half as good with a bow as he is toe to toe. In the event that I found myself in such a combat, I would be doing what I always do - figure out how I can make the biggest difference. If that happens to be my +4 and 1d8, so be it.

For a player/DM like me, I’m not interested in the stuff I do really well. For example Jaime Lannister is really good in a one-on-one fight. At least until he lost his hand. But a show of him winning fight after fight each episode because the bad guys just keep coming to try to beat him with a sword is boring after a while.

But what makes Jaime and others a really good fighter isn’t that he can (could) beat most people with a sword. It’s how they handle the stuff they don’t do well, and overcome the things that expose their weaknesses. One way that he has gotten past this is teamwork - if he’s going into battle, he’s bringing Bronn with him.

So when somebody complains “it’s not fair my Paladin isn’t good at range,” I’m not inclined to dig through the rule books to find ways to beef up your ranged attack abilities. I’d be more interested in knowing what you do in the moment, in the midst of battle, to find creative solutions.

Your example of an aura and the bow is a good one. You’re having a meaningful impact by both helping your allies and harming the enemy. Even if you aren’t the one doing the most damage, it’s still contributing to the victory, and in many cases may be preventing defeat.

Most battles you’re probably one of the biggest in terms of damage output. In this one you’re not. Find a way to be useful. Don’t complain the system is broken because it doesn’t let you be good at everything. For many of us it’s the exact opposite - it’s not broken precisely because it doesn’t let you be good at everything.
 

I didn't realize that it was such an unusual concept that sometimes enemies that are not dragons can fly.

I didn't realize that snark and sarcasm and deflection from the debate were such appealing options for you in the conversation. Guess I was wrong on that one!

Sometimes flying creatures are used as mounts. Sometimes there are multiple creatures with the ability to fly and no single spell could target them all. Not all fights are boss fights, and some don't happen in places chosen by the PCs. Sometimes the PCs face more than 2-3 fights between long rests. Sometimes that PCs know what they're going to be up against and can prep, other times they don't.

I already replied to the Wyvern riders, why are you pretending I didn't.

In the recent campaign, yes it was about dragons.

So there was even less justification for your snark and sarcasm and deflection?

But flying enemies, enemies far above the PCs, enemies that are mounted mounted arches a'la mongol hordes that ride in just close enough to fire an arrow and then ride away, enemies that cannot be reached for any number of reasons are not uncommon in my campaigns. It's called "having a variety of challenges".

Sometimes it's a boss fight, sometimes it's just been a rough Tuesday and the casters are low on spells and don't magically just "know" to have the right ones left.

It's like you didn't read the post you were replying to and think I repeated the post two posts ago or something.
 

The main issue to me is the disparity of options. Unless you are a niche build, there's no reason to not be a dex build for most campaigns.

If I have a 20 dex and standard studded leather + shield wielding a rapier I'm doing exactly as much melee damage as the strength based version, I don't take penalties for stealth, my dex save is far better, as is my initiative. Oh, and my ranged attacks are good as well.

Strength based? Umm ... my AC is better when/if I can afford plate mail (up until then it's probably about even with the dex guy). By 5%. Yippee? Unless I've put significant points into dex, I suck at stealth, my dex save stinks, my initiative is awful. I'd probably be okay with that, but then my ranged attacks have one fifth the effective range and limited to one per round as well*. I guess I can grapple ... except I can't remember the last time that came up in a game over the past four decades or so I've played. I'm better at climbing, but the dex guy will probably just rely on this well oiled team I keep hearing about.

So I should do a barbarian instead. Yep, big tough barbarian. Raar. Except do I really need to be big and tough? What if I just tanked dex and put everything int dex and con? Huh. My AC gets up as high as most fighters in full plate after a while. I don't get to be reckless and my damage is ever so slightly lower, but I could be a stealthy ninja barbarian firing death from the shadows. Strength based? I have to split between strength dex and con. If I want my barbarian to be charismatic or smart I'm SOL.

In any case, reinforced bows bring things more or less in balance and don't hurt anything. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :p

* unless you spend every other round doing something other than attacking which somehow means I'm getting more attacks or something? Still confused by that one.

I’d argue with the “most campaigns” but accept “most campaigns that are combat focused and more so if the players optimize.”

Your descriptions to me sound much more like 3.5e or even 4e combats to me in complexity and length, because 5e combat for us is lucky if we get past 3 rounds and 10 minutes. Maybe 30 minutes in a really long combat, and in a 4 hour session it’s pretty rare that we have more than 30-60 minutes of combat total. Again, there have been some exceptions. Grappling is one of the most common types of combat, in part because a lot of our campaigns happen in civilization and you can often get in trouble with the law when using deadly force.

The answer, as you’ve already stated, for you is clear. Build DEX based characters or homebrew “solutions.”

A Strength-based bow sounds fine to me, and even goes back to a mention the AD&D DMG. I’ve used them for decades, although their to-hit is DEX based, and damage is by the bow rating as long as you have enough STR to wield it.

Since it seems like you can do so much with DEX-based builds, why does it matter if there aren’t more STR ones? One might argue that along the lines of 3e’s three saving throw system, that the 6 abilities could potentially be collapsed into three. Wouldn’t that be radical? Physical, mental, and leadership/personality.

A more simple solution, but one that ruffles a lot of feathers? Get rid of finesse weapons, or at least the part that lets you use your DEX bonus. They can be rogue weapons that allow sneak attack, but otherwise use STR for bonus to hit and damage. Or DEX modifier to hit, and STR for damage across the board. Crossbows with a larger bonus take longer to load. I prefer when more abilities come into play.

There are a ton of easy tweaks, many simply be reinstating rules from earlier editions, and you’re good to go.

Do I think this is perfectly designed? No. But honestly, a system that requires you to make a choice about being a monster in melee and mediocre to bad in ranged, vs better balanced in both is a good one.

One of the reasons why I don’t think I see these problems as much in our games is we still roll stats, in order. So nobody has optimized characters. Instead they design them around their strengths and weaknesses. Occasionally you get somebody with above average stats, but it’s almost never so optimal across the board that it could be a problem. With the standard array, it makes it easier to get hung up on trying to get a specific build, but there is no “optimal” build, just optimal at a narrow focus.

It’s also why people play so many games with multiclass dips. All trying to make the character that is great at everything.

The fact is, the design is in part looking back to the niches that each race or class played in earlier editions. Through AD&D at least, teamwork was typically more effective than optimization. As more rules were added, optimization (or looking for loopholes) became more and more possible, and eventually a specific style of play.

It wasn’t a problem with A munchkinizer any more. The whole table is on board the superhero wagon. More than any other edition, 4e played to this crowd better than any other.

That’s not 5e’s design intent, and while I might have made different decisions, it’s very, very difficult to satisfy both approaches. In fact I seem to recall something about the design not catering to optimizers, but also not being concerned about preventing it.

The original idea of something modular might have worked, starting with a “basic” version and adding mechanical complexity for those that want it. But this makes supporting the system nearly impossible. How do you write an adventure? For what group? You’re back to the AD&D/BECMI split, and neither of those really catered to both well either.

For your intended play style based on your posts, and what you consider a meaningful contribution, I’m not sure I see any other solution than sticking with the classes that optimize well and/or homebrew.

I also don’t really see any issue with that either.

My homebrew at this point could arguably be a new system. Maybe you’d like it better. Combat is simpler yet provides more options, and I’d argue balances quite differently, encouraging defensive fighting, called shots, and teamwork, while adding more variability too.
 

I didn't realize that snark and sarcasm and deflection from the debate were such appealing options for you in the conversation. Guess I was wrong on that one!



I already replied to the Wyvern riders, why are you pretending I didn't.



So there was even less justification for your snark and sarcasm and deflection?



It's like you didn't read the post you were replying to and think I repeated the post two posts ago or something.

I'm getting tired of this thread, hence the sarcasm. But to answer your questions more fully

Look you have been big on talking about the melee focused guys being essentially screwed by dragons. If your spellcasters cannot do something to mitigate the flying dragon with the flyby attack and hideously long distance movement out in the open, then your whole party is likely screwed. Dragons have a high intelligence - catching your party unprepared will result in the death of the party.

Which is why it's called a challenge. Sometimes the bad guys get the drop on the good guys. I'm not doing this to screw over players, but I do set up logical scenarios based on the enemy they're facing.

Wyvern riders are much easier to deal with - for the spellcasters and even the melee types. Typically they come within close enough range that a readied action should be able to get them without being at disadvantage. Wyverns themselves make no attack unless they can get at least within 10' of you, and they do not have flyby attack. Anything which makes either the mount or the rider fall prone will make the attacker fall, so that's double opportunities for someone to miss a saving throw on a prone-inducing spell or effect. In addition, if you can force movement on the mount, the rider must make a save or fall.
It was hobgoblin archers riding wyvern mounts. I thought that was clear. Sometimes the wyverns would close for combat if their rider was dead or incapacitated, other times they would just fly away. The threat was the archers, although in other scenarios it was humanoid dragon hybrids that could fly. And no, I don't always have enemies (flying or not) show up in fireball formation.

No but people mentioned both a boss fight and dragons in this thread so it was natural to reply to the scenarios presented.

I don't expect the spellcasters to have just the right spells prepared (though this is in fact one primary reason for keeping scrolls and potions on hand) - just as I don't expect the melee types to have just the right attacks prepared. Why is it OK for the spellcasters to be caught less effective than expected in this same scenario, but not OK for the melee fighters to be as unprepared? Seems a double standard to me. If your spellcasters cannot think of something they can effectively do against flyers, why are you expecting the melee types to be better prepared than the rest?

The double standard to me is that dexterity based PCs can be good at melee and ranged but strength based ones only have limited range. One I don't see a reason for.

I've never said strength based fighters should be as good at ranged as they are at melee. Wizards have spikes in their capability, but with 5E they always have some decent cantrips. Warrior types are more slow-and-steady with decent contribution over time. When they're slow-and-virtually-useless I think it's a problem. That and everybody is all "teamwork for the win!" with the assumption that the proper spells are always available.

Snarky/sarcastic I'll own up to, but I don't know when I've "deflected". I like 5E, it's probably my favorite version. I just think they dropped the ball by making dex based characters too good without giving strength based characters equal chances to excel.
 

I've never said strength based fighters should be as good at ranged as they are at melee. Wizards have spikes in their capability, but with 5E they always have some decent cantrips.

I think this gets to the crux of the issue. Thrown weapons have a normal range of 30 feet, and most of your common attack cantrips have a normal range of 60 feet (6 of them being Acid Splash, Frostbite, Ray of Frost, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, Vicious Mockery). But the thrown weapons can extend beyond the normal range with disadvantage, while those cantrips are capped at 60 feet. There are exceptions to this of course (14 are at a shorter range than 60' and 3 are at a longer range being Eldritch Blast, Firebolt and Chill Touch), but that's the general rule for range - most common attack cantrips have a range of 60 feet or less.

I think it's pretty well balanced, but if we're talking a combat where the enemies are between 35-60 feet and not closer than that nor further than that, then obviously those 6 cantrips have the better situation there. I am just not sure how common that really is. A lot of the time, it's either beyond the 60' making those 6 cantrips useless but the thrown weapons still useful out to 120 feet, or closer than 35 feet making thrown weapons as good as the cantrips (and opeing up some of the shorter range cantrips like thornwhip).

So are we really arguing about a very small pocket of challenges which are: 1) flying creatures or creatures at a distance with a barrier, and 2) the foes always stay between 35-60 feet making most attac cantrips useful and most thrown weapons at disadvantage?

That's a pretty small pocket of challenges there. It seems a pretty silly argument. I'm good trading being disadvantage for that pocket of challenges while being able to hit them at 65' to 120' where the spellcasters cannot with their most common attack cantrips, and being just as effective or more effectice than the spellcasters cantrips at 0' to 30'.
 
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Still keeps coming back to this for me - if your campaign challenges and play preferences dont dhow strength based builds as getting enough benefits from strength (grapple or shove tactics once a decade or whatever) and thsts causing a problem and a bigger variety of challenge types is off the table - house rules seem like a good idea.

Whether that's adding strength bows *or* changing the rule for thrown weapon property to include drawing as part of throw *or* allowing strength modifier to impact thrown ranges *or* any number of many different ideas that can let your choices to make strength builds not be that significant at.

The "let bows use strengths too" by adding in strong bows is likely the simplest and most homogeneous- everybody has a bow and everybody adds their bigger stat and do everybody gets the same or just more the same and that's maybe what you are after- so nobody gets left out of that critical 35 to 60 foot range in scrnarioscehere terrain nerds the faster movement festures some have.

But, honestly, you could do worse than going with Hollywood damage style - the "damage" is keyed to character and weapon choice and those kind of weapon trait detail specifics vanish. Gimli's axe vs the elf sword is no bigger a diff than 007 ppl vs machine-guns-r-us.

Then, no need to see everybody all equip the bow (best weapon) to survive and play thru the campaign problem causing scenes and can get the weapon that makes more fun.
 

Hell even in basic D&D we learned to carry a bow. Its also why in 5E dex is a super stat, if you over specialize in melee (using the GWM feats or whatever) you will suck at ranged combat.
Go dex based dual wielder, take the TWF feat and carry one weapon in your hand. You can switch to a bow and use it same round. My Monk always carried a short bow, a Paladin can MC as a Warlock or Sorcerer and pickup a few cantrips with a 1 level dip. Rapier, shield and the duelist feat works really well we had a battlemaster fighter do that and was not to bad at range especially when they could give up one of his decent attacks to the archer ranger. Said Battlemaster could also switch to bow and action surge with high dex, worked well.

The reason strength sucks is they learned nothing from AD&D or 3E, and thought the 4E dex to damage was a good idea. Traditionally you trade high melee damage for less ranged dmaage but don't have to worry about not being able to attack or expose yourself to melee. AD&D compensated with a higher rate of fire, so did 3E with the rapid shot feat.

5E lets you have your cake and eat it esp with sharpshooter, archery style and maybe crossbow expert where you can use your crossbow in melee. If I am strength based I'll have something to contribute to ranged combat - a few javelins, a bow or crossbow, throw in a secondary weapon maybe a tertiary. Or use the old AD&D default of.

Primary Weapon
Ranged Weapon
Dagger
mace (for skeletons).

I do allow 3pp and there is a feat which treats thrown weapons as ammunition so you can bin around a few spears or what have you. My dex based halfling dual wielding champion was decent at ranged as well.
 
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