Ranger: Scout Preview up!

[Klaus]

The scout can't "only hit with the offhand weapon". Dual Weapon Attack requires the main weapon to hit. A Twin Striking cRanger has two chances of hitting and triggering Hunter's Quarry, and two chances of critting.

 

[TerraDave]

The one balancing factor I can see is that you need to hit to trigger the offhand attack. Twin strike is notable for its ability to pump out pretty consistent damage. (one of those attacks almost always seems to hit). This will be swingier.

Edit: Just ninjaed!

And the crits! Always with the crits...

 

[CovertOps]

That's alot more damage than Twin Strike! Without any feats a scout with an axe in their offhand can do 1d8+1d6+12 if both attacks hit. Even if one hits, it's +6 damage That's way better than what Hunter's Quarry can do. This is assuming they don't have the ability to hold a one-hand weapon as an offhand weapon. The average would be 20 damage. Say the scout only hits with their offhand weapon. that's 1d6+6 or 9.5 damage average. A cRanger would do 1d10+1d6 or 9 damage with one hit.

A cRanger with two broadwords can do 2d10+1d6 damage. The average damage for them would be 14.5. Why would anyone ever want to play a core ranger? Even if we went with a light blade the scout will out damage the cRanger because of the extra +1 to hit with BOTH weapons.

This is total power creep. I have to ask why, are they removing all the flavor of daily and encounter powers for massive damage? I have to say that I hope the class compendium that has the ranger in it will give cRangers the same boost.

First of all the eRanger will never hit with just his off hand weapon. Check the Dual Weapon trigger again. For the sake of argument let's pretend the following eRanger:

Dex: 18 (+4)
Hit: 50%
Long Sword/Hand Axe

MBA: = 50% * 1d8 + 4 (Dex) + 2 (off hand Axe) = .5 * 10.5 = 5.25
Dual Strike: = 45% * 50% * 1d6 + 4 (Dex) + 2 (off hand Axe) = .45 * .5 * 9.5 = 2.1375
DPR: = 5.25 + 2.1375 = 7.3875

Dex: 20 (+5)
Hit: 55%
Long Sword/Hand Axe


MBA: = 55% * 1d8 + 5 (Dex) + 2 (off hand Axe) = .55 * 11.5 = 6.325
Dual Strike: = 50% * 55% * 1d6 + 5 (Dex) + 2 (off hand Axe) = .5 * .55 * 10.5 = 2.8875
DPR: = 6.325 + 2.8875 = 9.2125


Dex: 18 (+4)
Hit: 55%
Long Sword/Short Sword

MBA: = 55% * 1d8 + 4 (Dex) = .55 * 8.5 = 4.675
Dual Strike: = 50% * 55% * 1d6 + 4 (Dex) = .5 * .55 * 7.5 = 2.0625
DPR: = 4.675 + 2.0625 = 6.7375

Dex: 20 (+5)
Hit: 60%
Long Sword/Short Sword


MBA: = 60% * 1d8 + 5 (Dex) = .6 * 9.5 = 5.7
Dual Strike: = 55% * 60% * 1d6 + 5 (Dex) = .55 * .6 * 8.5 = 2.805
DPR: = 5.7 + 2.805 = 8.505

At some point the +1 to hit will be better than the damage (higher static damage). Pick up Bastard Sword and Rapier if they don't have them. Start with an Axe and likely transition around level 8-10 or so.

 

[mkill]

That's alot more damage than Twin Strike!

If you make such a statement, provide a proper damage analysis rather than a back of the envelope calculation. At the least, we'd need a complete writeup of the first-level powers.

 

[shmoo2]

That's alot more damage than Twin Strike! Without any feats a scout with an axe in their offhand can do 1d8+1d6+12 if both attacks hit. Even if one hits, it's +6 damage That's way better than what Hunter's Quarry can do. This is assuming they don't have the ability to hold a one-hand weapon as an offhand weapon. The average would be 20 damage. Say the scout only hits with their offhand weapon. that's 1d6+6 or 9.5 damage average. A cRanger would do 1d10+1d6 or 9 damage with one hit.

A cRanger with two broadwords can do 2d10+1d6 damage. The average damage for them would be 14.5. Why would anyone ever want to play a core ranger? Even if we went with a light blade the scout will out damage the cRanger because of the extra +1 to hit with BOTH weapons.

This is total power creep. I have to ask why, are they removing all the flavor of daily and encounter powers for massive damage? I have to say that I hope the class compendium that has the ranger in it will give cRangers the same boost.

You're not taking into account the fact that the second attack for Daul Weapon attack requires the main hand to hit. That's very significant.

Assuming 55% hit chance with +3 prof. bonus weapon:
classic ranger, no feats-
1d8 (*0.55) + 1d8 (*0.55) + 1d6 (*0.7975) = 7.74125 dpr

scout ranger, no feats, axe off hand
1d8+6 (*0.55) + 1d6+6 (*0.5*0.55) = 8.3875 dpr

That's only 0.64625 extra damage per round (3-4 extra per combat), which seems a fair trade for the lack of daily powers.

I don't see power creep here. Many players will opt for the classic ranger with encounter powers that do more than an extra 1[W] damage, and daily powers that do much more. Other players will prefer the scout, with its simple mechanics and cool aspect powers.

edit: ninja'd

 

[DonAdam]

That's alot more damage than Twin Strike! Without any feats a scout with an axe in their offhand can do 1d8+1d6+12 if both attacks hit. Even if one hits, it's +6 damage That's way better than what Hunter's Quarry can do. This is assuming they don't have the ability to hold a one-hand weapon as an offhand weapon. The average would be 20 damage. Say the scout only hits with their offhand weapon. that's 1d6+6 or 9.5 damage average. A cRanger would do 1d10+1d6 or 9 damage with one hit.

A cRanger with two broadwords can do 2d10+1d6 damage. The average damage for them would be 14.5. Why would anyone ever want to play a core ranger? Even if we went with a light blade the scout will out damage the cRanger because of the extra +1 to hit with BOTH weapons.

This is total power creep. I have to ask why, are they removing all the flavor of daily and encounter powers for massive damage? I have to say that I hope the class compendium that has the ranger in it will give cRangers the same boost.

You've completely ignored to-hit chances, as noted above.

Let's assume first level and a 60% chance of hitting, with axes. I'm going to ignore crits but those will generally favor the core ranger (bigger weapon sizes, second chance at crit independent of needing to hit on the first attack, quarry maximized; the notable exception might come from power strike).

Core ranger does 1d10 per axe, plus 1d6 hunter's quarry. Only one attack needs to connect for hunter's quarry to work though. So the chance of quarry connecting with a 40% miss chance is 1-(.4)(.4) = .84.

Core expected damage: .6(5.5) + .6(5.5) + .84 (3.5) = 9.54

Scout does 1d10+6 and 1d6+6, but the second attack only goes off if the first hits.

Scout expected damage: .6(11.5 + .6(9.5)) = 10.32

The Scout has marginally higher round to round damage but no Dailies. Hardly a compelling case for power creep.

Edit: ninja'd twice.

 

[Raunalyn]

Aspect of the Cunning Fox seems a bit over-powered to me.

At-will, half damage, and shift 2?

If it's too good to be true, then it's over-powered

 

[Mengu]

Aspect of the Cunning Fox seems a bit over-powered to me.

At-will, half damage, and shift 2?

If it's too good to be true, then it's over-powered

Half damage only during your turn, and only for attacks made against you, so basically against opportunity attacks, immediate attacks, and aura attacks. Not too shabby, but nowhere near overpowered.

Aspect of the Charging Ram should often be better, as good as charging is, and you get free berserker's badge, more damage on a charge, and knock the target prone. With charging gear it's an incredibly good stance. Shifting 1 square with boots of adept charging, after you knock the target prone and get your free attack with combat advantage using your light blade, it's all heaven. Barbarians will be jealous.

 

[Oulak]

It's only half damage on his turn, not until the end of his next turn. In most cases this will apply to any opportunity attacks that he provokes for moving on his turn, which while is very nice, isn't game breaking.

 

[MrMyth]

Aspect of the Cunning Fox seems a bit over-powered to me.

At-will, half damage, and shift 2?

If it's too good to be true, then it's over-powered

Half damage from attacks made on your turn - it helps against OAs and the like, but that's all.

I think it's pretty cool, but not overpowered by any means.

Edit: Ninjad! As an aside, I do like that all the stances encourage a lot of mobility in different ways (via shifting and reducing damage from OAs, or via encouraging charging that avoids OAs, etc.)