Ranger vs Paladin

[jaelis]

See the difference?

Yes, I agree they are different. I just find the difference to be irrelevant for the purpose of DC. In both cases, you are using one action to attack multiple creatures, regardless of the number of attack rolls involved.

 

[generalhenry]

Action
Attack roll
attack


The first two are well defined. But DC works of the third which isn't defined. It really is problematic.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's definitely two separate attacks, and thus the ranger takes damage.

I think there' s certainly no ambiguity if the ranger, for example, made a ranged basic attack on the Paladin, then used an action point to make a ranged basic attack on the Warlock.

But in the Twin Strike case, the power has a Targets line of "One or two creatures". So in this particular example, the Targets of the Twin Strike power, to whom the Attack entry apply, are "The Paladin and the Warlock".

So the Paladin is included as a target of the Twin Strike power, and the Paladin is included as a target of the Attack entry of the Twin Strike power.

But one of the two attacks he consequently makes doesn't include the Paladin as a target.

-Hyp.

 

[Branduil]

If you can use area of effect spells against Paladins you can use Twin Strike against Paladins.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you can use area of effect spells against Paladins you can use Twin Strike against Paladins.

The Area spells generally don't explicitly specify that you're making two attacks, and dealing a certain amount of damage per attack, though.

There's nothing telling us that the nine attack rolls we make with our Fireball are nine discrete attacks.

With Twin Strike, we're told that we're making two attacks, and the damage is rolled for each attack.

The Fireball can be a single attack that affects multiple targets, but Twin Strike specifies that there is not a single attack, but rather two attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[Boarstorm]

I really have no rules standing to base this on, but I'd say that the two attacks are just subattacks of the one mainattack, and since the mainattack included the paladin, the ranger would not take DC damage.

But that's just my reading of the intent. And to the question raised above, I would make the same ruling if the ranger were in melee swinging his two bastard swords (really, why would he use a dagger in his off hand?) or simply shooting arrows (or throwing shuriken, or whatever) at range.

 

[Mengu]

I asked a similar question to customer service about this. You're gonna love their answer:

Question
I'm a little confused about when something is an attack, vs when it's an attack power. Here are a few questions that stem from this confusion:

If a Ranger is using Twin Strike, what is the order of events that happen for the attack?
Option A (following from the list bottom of page 269):
1. I choose to use Twin Strike
2. I choose two enemies for the attack.
3. I make two attack rolls.
4. I determine hit/miss.
5. I make two damage rolls
Option B:
0. I choose to use Twin Strike, which gives me 2 attacks.
1-5. I resolve these steps for the first attack
1-5. I resolve these steps for the second attack

If a Ranger is marked by enemy A, and decides to use Twin Strike to attacks enemies A and B, does he suffer the -2 penalty for being marked when attacking enemy B? What if he was instead using Split the Tree, does he suffer the penalty then?

If a Fighter is marked by enemy A, and decides to use Rain of Blows (assume with a flail), do all attacks generated from the power that don't target enemy A suffer the -2 penalty? Or is there no penalty as long as the primary target was enemy A?

If a Wizard is marked by enemy A, and decides to use Lightning Bolt, if the primary target is A, do the secondary attacks against different targets suffer the -2 penalty? If A is a secondary target, is the primary attack the only attack that suffers a -2 penalty?

I hope this wasn't too many questions all in one, but I'm trying to get a good picture of when something is an attack, and how it interacts with abilities that trigger on an attack, and the timing of it all.

Answer
All attack powers are attacks. Anything that involves and attack roll is an attack.
You can resolve your two attacks in either method depending on what you feel like doing.

When using Twin Strike or any other attack, if the character is attacking enemy A so there is no penalty.

 

[boolean]

Do we really need another thread on this topic?

Seriously, this is just the same question dressed up in different clothes. Considering you're a moderator here, you're a pretty poor example.

 

[the Jester]

Do we really need another thread on this topic?

Seriously, this is just the same question dressed up in different clothes.

Not really, imho- this is asking whether twin strike counts as one or two attacks.

I think Hyp sets a fantastic example, personally.

 

[Hdier]

I agree with Hypersmurf:

DC says that the penalty and damage is factored in when the Paladin isn't a target of the attack. Both creatures are the target of Twin strike, even though two different attack rolls are being made. Thus, no damage or penalties.

Thanks,
Hdier