Ranger's Camouflage Ability, Hide in Plain Sight and Flying Question?

[Michael Silverbane]

Sorry. Bardic Skillz do not justify ignoring the rules. That sort of precedent can and will get out of hand. "Hey, check out my song that let's me greater teleport without error even though I'm a 17th-level fighter!" Has he even provided a single piece of evidence that "terrain" could even remotely be considered "air"?

Whether or not a bird is flying has little to do with if it is in the plains or the forest, or any other type of terrain. If the surrounding area (the terrain) is natural, then the ranger's hide in plain sight ability should work, whether he's standing on the ground, climbing a tree, or in flight.

Later
silver

 

[Infiniti2000]

If he's above the terrain, he's not in it. The ability is not: "While in any sort of natural terrain or floating at an altitude of no higher than 10,000 feet . . ."

While flying you are immune to the terrain movement penalties. What "terrain" is the ocean? If you fly above the ocean, but not in it, can you breathe? Can a flying shark use its keen scent? After all, if flying is considered in the terrain, then certainly a flying shark is considered in the water. Right?

 

[hong]

Sorry. Bardic Skillz do not justify ignoring the rules.

However, successfully entertaining the DM justifies anything.

 

[irdeggman]

However, successfully entertaining the DM justifies anything.

Without a doubt. A DM can never be bought, although he can be "rented".

Never underestimate the power of a DM's favored snack (how many remember Teflon Billy in Knights of the Dinner Table?)

 

[irdeggman]

If he's above the terrain, he's not in it. The ability is not: "While in any sort of natural terrain or floating at an altitude of no higher than 10,000 feet . . ."

While flying you are immune to the terrain movement penalties. What "terrain" is the ocean? If you fly above the ocean, but not in it, can you breathe? Can a flying shark use its keen scent? After all, if flying is considered in the terrain, then certainly a flying shark is considered in the water. Right?

This one is situational, IMO.

I agree that by strict RAW you are correct but the OP probably has a good case to make his ruling. Oh and I agree 100% with your reply as it applies to silver's comment.

That is why my original post said below the tree line. This was to equate to real world effects like Rain Forests and canopies. Regardless all restictions on Hid still apply (movement restrictions and opposed Spot checks) - it is not an "automatic" thing.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

If he's above the terrain, he's not in it.

I disagree. I don't think that this is a binary choice, where you're either in the terrain, or above it. What if I'm flying, but only a few inches off of the ground? What if I'm flying, but inside a cave?

While flying you are immune to the terrain movement penalties.

Are you? I am not familiar with that rule.

What "terrain" is the ocean?

I'm going to assume that it is "still water," which has the following effects:

Still Water: Lakes and oceans simply require a swim speed or successful Swim checks to move through (DC 10 in calm water, DC 15 in rough water, DC 20 in stormy water). Characters need a way to breathe if they’re underwater; failing that, they risk drowning. When underwater, characters can move in any direction as if they were flying with perfect maneuverability.

If you fly above the ocean, but not in it, can you breathe? Can a flying shark use its keen scent? After all, if flying is considered in the terrain, then certainly a flying shark is considered in the water. Right?

Characters need a way to breathe if they are underwater, but not otherwise. There are, then, some different degrees of "in the terrain."

I am not familiar with the flying shark, so I'll use a regular shark for reference... A shark's Keen Scent ability does not mention whether or not it can be used when not underwater, and neither does the description of the scent ability mention whether or not water-breathing creatures can use the ability when not underwater... So... Yes. Whether it is in the terrain or not.

A flying shark is considered in Still Water terrain, but Not Underwater... If it is flying, and not underwater. And, again... There is plenty of room for interpretation of in the terrain and not in the terrain without going to extremes.

 

[mvincent]

Semantically and etymologically speaking, "terrain" would be the antithesis of "open air". That said, it might be possible to hide in the open air with the appropriate background (like say, the tree canopy overhead). I'd still apply a penalty though.

 

[domino]

Semantically and etymologically speaking, "terrain" would be the antithesis of "open air". That said, it might be possible to hide in the open air with the appropriate background (like say, the tree canopy overhead). I'd still apply a penalty though.

The appropriate background would defeat the purpose of In Plain Sight.

 

[mvincent]

The appropriate background would defeat the purpose of In Plain Sight.

I believe you have a different (and possibly amusingly literal) interpretation of "in plain sight". The need for appropriate background is the reason this can only be done in natural terrain. The "in plain sight" part simply means that it can be done while being observed (i.e. it does not speak to the plainness of the background).

 

[Infiniti2000]

Are you? I am not familiar with that rule.

If a character flies above a road in the desert, do you impose a 1/2 movement rule? In other words, does the unencumbered, unarmored wizard with a fly spell move at 60ft or 30ft per Move Action?

If there are obstacles on the ground, does the mage get charged double movement penalties to fly over them?

A flying shark is considered in Still Water terrain, but Not Underwater... If it is flying, and not underwater. And, again... There is plenty of room for interpretation of in the terrain and not in the terrain without going to extremes.

Yet, we are in extremes. We're comparing in the air vs. not in the air. If you want, I'll agree there is room for gray area if the ranger is a few inches off the ground, or below the treeline or has a suitable backdrop.

However, put that ranger up in the clear blue sky and it is most certainly not natural terrain. I quite honestly can't understand how you view flying above the ocean as being in "still water" terrain. That's just crazy talk.