Ransacking and rummaging rogue - is he evil?

[Felonious Ntent]

I agree to both above posts mostly.

In this thread I have seen more than once that stealing from inocents or poor people is evil but stealing from rich isn't.
To me the act is the same regardless.
I think stealing isn't evil.
Green Slime thinks it is.
I think we are both entitled to our opinion but I don't think some one can justify 1 act of stealing as evil and 1 as not evil. Regardless of vitcim's circumstances in life the act of theft should be either evil or not(based on personal opinion). It shouldn't matter who the vicitm is.

EDIT: Man must remember to pre read posts and catch errors then.

 

[ARandomGod]

IMO, theft is evil. No matter who gets stolen from.

Interesting... Mainly because I see this as subsuming law/chaos into good/evil.

I do feel the need to point out that, by definition, taxation IS theft.

 

[ARandomGod]

I agree to both above posts mostly.

In this thread I ahve seen mroe than once that stealing from inocents or poor people is evil but stealing from rich isn't.
To me the act is the same regardless.
I think stealing isn't evil.
Green Slime thinks it is.
I think we are both entitled to our opinion but I don't think some one can justify 1 act of stealing as evil and 1 as not evil. Regardless of vitcim's circumstances in life the act of theft should be either evil or not(based on personal opinion). It shouldn't matter who the vicitm is.

See, it's all about communication and philosophy. In Green Slime's campaign I play a rogue "politician", so that everything I steal is instead a "tax" that I'm imposing to support my "government".

In these other people's worlds I'm instead redefining "rich" so that everyone I steal from is wealthy. Damn beggars and their conspicous consumption. Everyone knows they have hidden hoards of gold. I wish *I* could just lay around in the streets all day, but NO, I have to WORK for a living. Taking these copper pieces from the poor ain't easy you know. Much easier to steal from the rich...

And, really, the thief in question DID look for wealthier luggage...

 

[Sejs]

Of course Christianity has a bearing on the subject. Our entire legal systems in the western hemisphere and the near Middle East are based upon those tablets that Moses was given.

You know, last time I checked our legal system was actually based on The Code of Hammurabi, and not the 10 Commandments.

So no, actually that particular religeon doesn't have a bearing in a discussion of legality. Morality, sure. Legality, no.

 

[green slime]

You know, last time I checked our legal system was actually based on The Code of Hammurabi, and not the 10 Commandments.

So no, actually that particular religeon doesn't have a bearing in a discussion of legality. Morality, sure. Legality, no.

I don't think anyone actually writing a law book or instituting a law in the last 2000 years looked at the Code of Hammurabi, or even considered it. It will have occured that they looked to religious leaders for guidance. Those leaders being predominantly Jewish, Muslim or Christian.

Felonious Ntent stated that "Christianity has no bearing in this discussion". Whether legal or morale.

 

[green slime]

See, it's all about communication and philosophy. In Green Slime's campaign I play a rogue "politician", so that everything I steal is instead a "tax" that I'm imposing to support my "government".

Nice try... Is your "politician" willing to take the holy word test? Or has he just remembered a previous appointment? What a shame!

 

[ARandomGod]

Nice try... Is your "politician" willing to take the holy word test? Or has he just remembered a previous appointment? What a shame!

Sure.
It's all about belief. As long as the guy believes. And, as the person writing HIS story, he does indeed believe.

Of course, if you're talking about the spell by that name...I'll point out that isn't a test for evil, but a test for non-good. Which is significantly differnt. The very essence of the difference I'm pointing out. Non-good does not equal evil.

But from stealing? Sure, I can justify a "good" aligned character who steals. As I said, it's all about justification. As long as you're not overriding the player as GM and enforcing your belief of what's good and what's evil, sure.

 

[green slime]

Interesting... Mainly because I see this as subsuming law/chaos into good/evil.

I do feel the need to point out that, by definition, taxation IS theft.

I beg to differ. Excessive taxation is theft. Now where you lay the line on "excessive" may vary.

You not only live in a society, you are a citizen of a country and you gain benefits from living in that society and from being a citizen. You do not have to live there. You do not have to accept the responsibilities that come with your citizenship, you can forgo your citizenship. You do not have to pay taxes. You can refuse to pay (and be incarcerated). You could grab a tent and live in the wild like a savage, only to return at 65. (You would still gain the benefits of citizenship in that country, if you hadn't forgone it. Some give a modicum of pension regardless of what you have done).

As to Law vs Chaos, that is worthy of another thread entirely. My entire new campiagn revolves around Law vs Chaos.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

And my players wonder why I just groan when one of them wants to play a thiefy type rogue....

"So, let me get this straight, you're going to derail the entire session just so that your character can try to pick pockets...repeatedly...in the marketplace?"

 

[ARandomGod]

I beg to differ.

Obviously. That's what we're doing here. ^_^
I don't mind, as I differ from you. That is, in my opinion, one of the main points of forums such as this!

Excessive taxation is theft. Now where you lay the line on "excessive" may vary.

OK. And I don't view it as excessive for me to tax those people of thier luggage. Once again, it's merely a matter of justification and viewpoint. You can, of course, differ. But if you differ by overriding my choice of alignment and forcing a non-good one, then you can't say that you're doing anything other than making an overriding decicion, ignoring my viewpoint. (Note: This is a pretty good way to "define" good and evil. This is a supernatural world. All you have to do is have good and evil lawfully defined by a god or grouping thereof. Some actions would be evil by definition. However, taking something without permission is then going to be either good or evil, whoever does it, government or not).

You not only live in a society, you are a citizen of a country and you gain benefits from living in that society and from being a citizen.

OK. So I choose to say that this country is mine, and it's being raided by a robber baron (the King), and I'm defending it and taking "taxes" and "liberating" stolen monies. I'm not saying this character is stable, I'm saying that it could fit.

You do not have to live there.

Rilly? Well, neither do they. For that matter, there are plots of land in the middle east that people *could* walk away from. That's not really a valid point in this debate.

You do not have to accept the responsibilities that come with your citizenship, you can forgo your citizenship.

I don't think that you can... People have tried this sort of thing, they get punished and/or killed.

You do not have to pay taxes.

OK...

You can refuse to pay

True, but aren't you "forced" to?

(and be incarcerated).

Ah HA! And they take any monies they can when they do this. They then sell off your property. It's called "siezing your assets". They call it this because they're the government, and the governement has done such a good of justification of it's theft that it's convinced even YOU (and many people) that this "protection money" is not theft. Seriously, go back and look at the evolution of governments. Or try and do this "not paying taxes" thing, or look at what happens if a group attempts to succeed from the nation. You are not allowed to not live there anymore. You must comply, or you will be forced to, and the force will happen in these ways set out by law.


In conclusion I'll point out that you are correct... the people who write the laws also write the definitions, and "lawfully" taking something is not theft:

Of course, you'll also note that this very fact goes well to illustrate that theft and stealing is a law/chaos axis event... and therefore my point that a lawful action that is in every way theft with the exception of it being lawful would fall on the same point on the good/evil axis as that same action taken unlawfully.

theft
*n : the act of taking something from someone unlawfully

**(Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny.

Note: To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief.

***a criminal taking of the property or services of another without consent