Rant About Recent Dungeon Magazines

[Krug]

Give credit where credit is due department

Show us what D&D can do outside the dungeoncrawl, like AEG's brilliant "Dynasties & Demagogues" recently did for political adventures. If I could actually use Poly material in my D&D games, I would be a lot happier about its inclusion in Dungeon.

ATLAS GAMES' brilliant "DYNASTIES AND DEMAGOGUES"; just to clarify.

 

[drnuncheon]

Eric,

I am very glad to hear what you said. I will be watching the future of Dungeon/Poly eagerly.

J

 

[JeffB]

My perfect world would have all dungeon one month, all poly the next. Then subscribers could pick either one they wanted, or both at a slightly higher subscription discount . We would still have a stand-alone LGJ too I like Poly, and a (very) few of the minigames, but not at the expense of Dungeon content (and this is coming from someone who also plays D20 SW, D20 COC, and D20M)

I think Erik should take a VERY close look at the first year and half or so of the Dungeon Mags that came out after 3E's release. The quality of writing and adventures was noticeably higher. The Harrowing, Anvil of Time, Raiders of Galaths Roost, The Door from Everyhwere, Eye for an Eye, heck even the very basic Evil Unearthed, are far better than the drek nowadays like "hollow threats" & the "adventure path" (IMO of course).


I also would like to say that subscriber-only ADVENTURES, for lack of a better term, "sucks". If you want to give away some freebie D20 products or extra goodies to those who subscribe, then that is fine & dandy, but shortchanging a newsstand customer of adventures (the reason why he/she is buying Dungeon mag in the first place!) is just plain wrong. I should note I am a former subscriber, and I have been considering subbing again now that Erik is in charge. But subscriber only adventures would not sway me, there are far too many more problems with the current Dunegon/poly for that to make much of a positive difference. However, I know that as a current newsstand buyer (and potentially will remain so), getting less adventures for more cost angers me, and I'll be happy to vote w/ my wallet. I already have by letting my sub run out.

One other thing I would like to mention is I keep hearing how much better Dungeon is value-wise than a stand-alone D20 adventure. I disagree with that. That line of thinking only works when you are assuming the reader actually WILL USE all or most of the adventures in that issue. Since we have been getting fewer and fewer adventures as is, there's less for one to be happy with. Now if you like every adventure in every mag, then that's great, but I'm willing to bet that most folks only find a couple of things that are useful in the magazine from month to month. Because I HAVE a choice when I purchase a stand-alone D20 adventure, and DON'T have a choice of what comes in Dunegon Mag, stand alone adventures are a better value for me, than Dungeon mag is in almost every case. A standalone D20 product is a well informed choice, Dungeon mag is a crapshoot in that regard.

Thanx for listening

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Genres

You mean to say genres which no large group of people care to play, support or deal with.

How do you know that?

I think that is the faulty logic here - RPG's are about playing, not about reading some flakey concept on how to have a Soap Opera RPG that will not recieve any kind of mass appeal.

So everything has to have mass appeal? How many famous games and settings would be eliminated right off the bat with that thinking? The faulty logic is thinking innovation occurs without trying new things. If no game designer ever tried anything new ever, how many ideas that are popular now would never have seen the light of day? Eliminate every game released since 1974. If the industry refuses to innovate and try new things, it'll stagnate. Unless you have a crystal ball, you don't know what'll have mass appeal and what won't. All you have are preconceptions about what you, specifically, won't like. So, all we're ever supposed to have, ever, is an endless stream of variations on the heroic fantasy genre? How boring is that? I'd rather have a constant stream of new concepts. Even if I don't like one, a new one will be along soon.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Flakey concepts should be left to third party publishers and fan sites like Malls & Morons, where my gaming dollar is not forced to subsidize such non-commercial concepts with every issue.

Your gaming dollar is not "forced" into supporting anything. If you don't like something, don't buy it. If you have a subscription, cancel it. Looking at something before you buy is better than buying sight unseen and insisting that the publisher cater to you exact taste.

By the way, what are flakey concepts? After all, we are talking about a game where we save the world from evil monsters by use of swords and magic, and interact with elves. Ask people outside the hobby, and most of 'em will consider that the height of flakiness.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Re: Give credit where credit is due department

ATLAS GAMES' brilliant "DYNASTIES AND DEMAGOGUES"; just to clarify.

Heh. Atlas... Yup.

Atlas normally puts out horrible d20 content, IMO, so I naturally tried to attribute something as clever as Dynasties & Demagogues to another d20 publisher that started with the letter "A" who actually puts out stuff I like on a frequent basis. My bad.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

By the way, just so it doesn't seem I'm four-square against anyone:

Another reason the mini-games fail to work for me is that there is no support. Make them OGC, and let them grow or die on their own with third party and fan support.

Yep, I said that above. Totally agree.

Another stumbling block to use them is that there are no adventures to make them easier to run!

Again, I agree totally.

My group has no time for one-shots. If the games were of interest to us and were supported, we might try some as a campaign.

Well, that's good!

I stress *might*, because most of the ones I've seen fail to make me want to have anything to do with them. I've never felt the urge to roleplay Josie & the Pussycats, Doc Savage, World War 2, Giant Robots, Cannonball Run, Buffy, TMNT, etc.

Many other have. There have been entire RPGs that have lasted for years based on many of those concepts. Car Wars, TMNT, and Robotech are good examples. Buffy now has its own RPG that has garnered some success. So, I can imagine you'll ask "then why do them as minigames?" Because they stretch the boundaries of what d20 can cover. If WotC wants to standardize things with d20 - and that was the intent of the d20 movement - then using the minigames as a test bed for new ways of using the game makes perfect sense. The hope is, I imagine, that one or other of these concepts will catch fire enough to provide the company with a new source of income. They want d20 to cover as much ground as possible.

Now, for the remainder of this post, I'll try to inject some ideas I just had with as little of my trademark "hyperbole" as possible...

Hey man, this is the internet, the Home of Hyperbole!

Here's an idea to keep Poly alive AND make the D&D crowd happier... Make Poly for variant fantasy d20 games, and make the material OGC.

Poly isn't just about fantasy. I think the third party publishers have this well in hand. Matter of fact, one of the things that has baffled me (but I'm easily baffled) is that so few thrid party publishers have tried to go beyond fantasy. But I agree with the OGC part (see one of my earlier posts).

Introduce new rules, feats, spells, etc. Create mini-games that could be used in a D&D campaign. Some ideas that have not been covered yet by WoTC are low magic worlds or no magic worlds (maybe even a real medieval historical setting).

While I don't think this is a bad idea overall, I'll echo what I just said - the third party publishers would be better suited for this. Still, I don't think it's a bad idea. Heck, why not have a minigame that tries to construct a 1e style campaign setting for d20?

Another idea instead of the mini-games is adventure locations! Put in an entire fully statted D&D city with buildings and NPCs described that suggest adventure ideas to DMs but do not actually contain any specific adventure. Or put in an entire neighborhood, village or city block in microscopic detail. Or even just a tavern, inn, guild or temple. Or a rogue's gallery with dozens of fully statted and illustrated NPCs (preferably villains).

I don't dislike this at all, but Dungeon is the better venue for such material.

In short, make Poly useful to D&D players while encouraging readers to expand their ideas of what makes a D&D game. Put in some thoughtful, RP-intensive stuff to balance out the brain-dead hack-n-slash "back to the dungeon" nonsense WoTC's bee pushing on us since 3.0. Show us what D&D can do outside the dungeoncrawl, like AEG's brilliant "Dynasties & Demagogues" recently did for political adventures. If I could actually use Poly material in my D&D games, I would be a lot happier about its inclusion in Dungeon.

I share your enthusiasm for Dynasties & Demagogues (I think it was done by Atlas, by the way). However, the problem with more RP-intensive stuff is that it can shade over into railroaded-plot territory. Something along the lines of Atlas' fine Splintered Peace, though, would be welcome.

I'm thinking Dungeon should be revamped into the "DM's Magazine"... not just for adventures, but for addressing variant D&D rules, settings, ideas, etc. Everything to make the DM's life easier, which means fully statted/equipped NPCs (with spells prepared), locations, advice on how to challenge PCs, cool ways to bend or break the rules to create the game you want, etc.

Well, you and I finally seem to be on the same wavelength! While I don't know if Dungeon is necessarily the mag for all this (heck, why not have Dragon divided up into player/DM sections?), I'd love to see a mag like what you're detailing. Still, the thing is - books directed expressly at DMs don't sell as well; there are far fewer DMs than players. It's hard to say if such a mag would be financially viable.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Re: Give credit where credit is due department

Heh. Atlas... Yup.

Atlas normally puts out horrible d20 content, IMO, so I naturally tried to attribute something as clever as Dynasties & Demagogues to another d20 publisher that started with the letter "A" who actually puts out stuff I like on a frequent basis. My bad.

Umm, are you sure you're thinking of Atlas (Seven Strongholds, Seven Cities, Backdrops, etc.?). Atlas has been consistent in putting out some of the best d20 material.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Your gaming dollar is not "forced" into supporting anything. If you don't like something, don't buy it. If you have a subscription, cancel it. Looking at something before you buy is better than buying sight unseen and insisting that the publisher cater to you exact taste.

By the way, what are flakey concepts? After all, we are talking about a game where we save the world from evil monsters by use of swords and magic, and interact with elves. Ask people outside the hobby, and most of 'em will consider that the height of flakiness.

If it's in Dungeon, and it's not D&D, and I want the D&D content, then I am being forced to buy a bunch of junk (IMO) I can't use and don't want... and it's stealing space that was formerly used for more of the D&D content I want! How fair is that to me?

Flakey concepts are anything not proven to be a bestseller; therefore it is safe to assume that they will have limited appeal. Pretty much everything in Poly qualifies as far as I'm concerned. Save "innovations" like Thunderball Rally and Hijinks for fan sites or third party publishers. Dungeon is supposed to be all about D&D, not about misc. genre rpgs. The internet is where flakey concepts belong (since that's where so many flakes are, LOL); no sane publisher should risk money on them.

IMO, Paizo is mistaken if they think they can turn Dungeon into a "player's magazine". How many players are going to pay for two $6-7 mags each month (Dragon and Dungeon?). Not many. None of my players even buy Dragon! Heck, I rarely buy Dragon (too many stupid comics, too many useless [for me] articles).

Poly was formerly a free zine sent to RPGA members only, and like its counterpart, the near-useless [to me] LGJ, is now it's being forced upon the rest of us and destroying our beloved magazine month by month, piece by piece, just like cancer (as another poster pointed out). You say if we don't like it, don't buy it, and that's true... I haven't been buying many issues since Poly crept in, but the point is, Dungeon is one of the few cheap sources for D&D adventures and if I want them, I'm stuck getting less D&D in each issue. The magazine is so hit or miss that limiting D&D adventures to only a few per issue is a guaranteed way to ensure fewer people will find each issue useful. The sheer quantity and variety of D&D adventures is what kept the magazine as popular as it was with so many DMs over the years. With less content to choose from, it's now a struggle to justify paying for the magazine at all, and certainly not monthly if the past three issues are any judge. Frankly, a few band aids like cutting subscriber only content isn't going to have enough impact...

Wait! I've got it! Make Poly the subscriber only content! That way, I never have to subscribe or even see the accursed Poly in my Dungeon ever again! Iron-Chef, you're a genius!

 

[Iron_Chef]

Re: Re: Re: Give credit where credit is due department

Umm, are you sure you're thinking of Atlas (Seven Strongholds, Seven Cities, Backdrops, etc.?). Atlas has been consistent in putting out some of the best d20 material.

No, I'm thinking of Atlas. I have intensely disliked everything d20 the company has done with the exceptions of Backdrops, Three Days To Kill and Dynasties & Demagogues. All of the other books you mention (and those you don't, such as the modules) fall into the "hated it" category with me, including Splintered Peace. Why? Because they include too many demihumans in them and that irritates me because I run humanocentric games. I thought Splintered Peace sounded cool, until I picked up the book and saw the word "halflings" displayed prominently on the back cover. I put it down immediately in disgust. I looked through the other books and thought "Blech! Could've been good, but they ruined it with all these stinkin' elves and dwarves and such. I don't have time to convert this stuff to humans, and I'll never use them, so buying this would be a waste."

I will have nothing to do with dirty, rotten demihumans ever since Gimble ran off with my wife.