[Rant] Fantasy - beyond the "standard" paradigm

Wow. Only two pages in, and we've been already confronted with the dreaded "sense of wonder" pall of death, rounser trying to completely redefine literary genre tags to suit himself (and then have the audacity to tell anyone who disagrees with them that they're being obfuscatory) and jdrakeh implying that anyone who disagrees with him is a novice or contractual lackey. To say nothing of all the "don't tell me how to think!" drama queenery earlier on. I'm genuinely sorry that I decided to read the whole thread before responding. :\

For what it's worth, Jürgen, I agree with you, and the artificial narrowing of the genre by some of the more strident D&D fans is a pet peeve of mine. I've certainly never felt constrained by any such limitations. My own personal favorite homebrew setting, that I've been tinkering with and writing in for a few years now, has very few of the "traditional fantasy" trappings. No elves. No dwarves. No wizards. As a shorthand, I've often described it as Edgar Rice Burroughs (especially Barsoom) combined with Robert E. Howard, H.P Lovecraft and Sergio Leone and chromed with a healthy amount of steampunk. While it's a far cry from D&D or Tolkien, I'd really like to see how in the world anyone could make a coherent case that it's not fantasy.
 

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J-Dawg said:
jdrakeh implying that anyone who disagrees with him is a novice or contractual lackey.

I didn't mean to imply that (and don't think I did). In point of fact, I am a "contractual lackey" most of the time, so I didn't pull that reference out of thin air - when I'm hired top do something (be it writing or home computer repair), I'm always handed a checklist of customer wants. When I do things on my own (again, be it writing or home computer repair), I set my own parameters.

The argument was that authors never write what they want, but only what the public demands (and that this is somehow the fault of genre classification, as if said system somehow prevents an author from exercising free will). I was merely pointing out that the only writers who regularly fall into this trap are a) contractual writers (like myself) and b) novice writers who haven't yet learned that they have a choice.

I didn't mean to suggest that people who disagree with me are all contractusl writers or novices (and looking back at what I wrote I never even implied that, so unless you spent a few minutes filtering my posts through a lense of blind hatred, I have no idea where you got that impression).
 
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For my milage, if fantasy is medieval + dragons, I HATE fantasy. The triumverate of Tolkien/Leiber/Howard seems....unmerited in my opinion. I mean, it has it's place, but it gets old fast.

If fantasy is air pirates flying through the country on lazer-powered robot dinosaurs, I LOVE fantasy. Or if it's Achilles slaughtering thousands of men in rage for killing his gay lover, I LOVE fantasy. Or if it's a dystopian far future when magic is re-discovered under the shadow of a dark star, I LOVE fantasy.

It really seems counter-intuitive to say that fantasy cannot be something....it's friggin' FANTASY man, it's all about what cannot be.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
It really seems counter-intuitive to say that fantasy cannot be something....it's friggin' FANTASY man, it's all about what cannot be.

That is easily the most elegant and sensible point on this thread.
 

jdrakeh said:
I didn't mean to imply that (and don't think I did). In point of fact, I am a "contractual lackey" most of the time, so I didn't pull that reference out of thin air - when I'm hired top do something (be it writing or home computer repair), I'm always handed a checklist of customer wants. When I do things on my own (again, be it writing or home computer repair), I set my own parameters.
Eh, nothing personal. I was just trying to make a snarky joke to the effect of "this thread's gone downhill fast." I didn't think you were seriously advancing the idea that anyone who didn't know their genres was merely a novice or a hired lackey.
 
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When I was first considering taking on writing as a career, I correspended with several (then) well known authors within thier own genre niches. Each of them told me one thing...

Fantasy is both the easiest and the hardest to write.

A Fantasy fan won't ask why magic works, it just does. The jungle can peter out to desert within a few miles of hills, and nobody asks why.

Fantasy also attempts to be progressive and modern minded, often putting modern morals on the novel.

Travel is slow, and can set the pace of the fantasy novel. It will allow character interaction, exploration into new and fantastic regions, and challenge the character's mindset, physical body, preconcieved notions, etc.

"Don't do it." Was by far the most advice I got.

Which is why I switched to horror and post apocalyptic writing.

Workshops, classes, speeches, etc all showed me something about fantasy that was somewhat of an epiphany.

People want the romanticized view of medivel times, where the citizens have modern day morals and beliefs, where everyone abhors violence except the bad guys, and the good guy has the "reluctant hero" bit going on.

Most of the people who bashed on Tolkien and Lord of the Rings couldn't write the equivelant to save thier lives.

The standard was shifting quickly, into strange territory, making me glad I'd stayed away from it. In thier own way, fantasy was rapidly becoming as bad as Science-Fantasy. (Star Trek and Star Wars fit in Science Fantasy best) as far as infighting, bitchiness, entrenched positions that made the Western Front look like two guys throwing snowballs across a street, and people that were convinced that thier next novel would change the world and "open people's eyes to the truth of reality" (No kidding, I heard an author claim this about her next fantasy novel, how it would open people's eyes to the fact that everyone is racist)

One thing I noticed in Fantasy, was the encroaching and creeping: "Lack of progress" as far as civilizations went. An empire had existed for thousands of years, but had not changed, there had been no evolving of the empire either technologically or spiritually. Yet they had 20th Century morals.

Fantasy also became a way to make political statements. The most famous I remember is a short story, I kid you not, where Hillary Clinton was transported to Valhalla, where she berated the male Gods and caused a revolt. IIRC it even won awards. It was crap. Let's be honest, logically, Odin would have crushed her mortal butt for mouthing off and shrieking at him like the story described. But it was considered "innovative" and "clever" instead of politically correct claptrap.

Then came possibly the most horrible thing to happen to fantasy...

The "Old Guard" began dying out, or just going insane (Piers Anthony, I'm looking at you. "The Magic Fart"? Come on, you used to write OK books, this is just stupid) and writing all kinds of crazy crap. The Wheel of Time kind of began wandering around like a drunken wino trying to find a doorstep to freeze to death in. At least Eddings had the good graces to end his two series, despite fan demands.

New fiction began to read more and more like modern day people without the tech base. Angry, petty, and vengeful Gods passed from vogue. Strong characters were replaced by "innovative characters" that were so physically/emotionally/mentally crippled it's a wonder they survived childhood.

And people were still in love with medieval European "hovel-esque" architecture and society. Things got warped and even turned into downright jokes. I've read novels where samuria swords cleaved through platemail like butter. Where everyone owned a sword, voted in elections, and the king was either wise and all knowing, or a bitter tyrannical despot, strangely enough, both of them were crafted in such a way as to mimic the appearance, attitude, etc of modern (then) world leaders.

So politics had REALLY infected fantasy.

Then came the Joe Everyman hero. I HATE that bastard. I wish someone would develope a time machine, find who came up with that damn idea for heroes, and bash in his mother's head before he infected literature.

Joe Everyman replaced Conan, Fafred (sp?), and all the others. He had modern morals, modern mental/emotional problems, was weak, unwilling to do what he was being pushed into doing, and basically, really pissed me off. He wasn't special, because everyone is special, if you get my meaning.

Then came removing conflicts. I know, for those of you who have studied writing, conflict and resolution are an intregal part of a novel. But yet people began trying to remove conflict from the hero. The villians had conflict and violence, but the heroes conflict was more along the lines of an internal conflict rather than open violence.

By this time, more and more Fantasy was watered down.

No more wonderous locations. "Keep locations simple, complex locations can confuse the readers." In other words, you are an idiot, so I'm going to use simple things to keep your head from imploding.

No more complex, inhuman races, unless they are to be used as misunderstood villians who only want to live in peace, or are totally alien locusts. "People like to be able to understand the motivations of races, so they have to be easily accessable and identifiable to readers. Readers want races that are misunderstood, just as they are..." In other words, you're dumber than a bag of hammers and won't understand that the [fill in the blank] are xenophobic :):):):):):):)s, but will understand that they were pushed into fighting the hero's side because of someone invading thier farmland.

Stick to a single plotline, with no more than one sub-plot per character to a maximum of three at any given time. "It's too hard for readers to follow multiple sub-plots, so keep it simple so they don't get confused and hurl feces at the wall." In other words, you're too stupid to keep track of too much.

And it goes on.

Resulting in kind of bland settings and characters. Many of which are cookie-cutter.

Can't forget the types of heros and anti-heroes. But that's a rant for different time.

So, people's fantasy has become watered down. They've become enamored or too locked into medevial hovel-esque-ness, and don't like powerful/strong characters. At least, according to "market research" and "consumer polls" that are always flashed around.

So the standard paradigm is a somewhat watered down setting, where nothing changes until our heroes come along, unless it is at least 200 years ago. Things are cookie-cuttered, and often have modern morals attached. The hero is just some guy along for fate's ride, not someone going out to make a difference because they want to.

But, since I'm about 3 shots in further than I was when I started, I'll close with this...

In the standard fantasy setting, there are multiple niches, and each niche has its own defenders, many of whom will fight to the death to protect and validate it. They will yank out cites, evidence, and even sound-bites to show that thiers is the primary paradigm that is better than every other one.

What it boils down to, is the whole crowd needs to shut the hell up and let people enjoy what they like, instead of trying to ram what they like down everyone's throat.

If you like Hovels and Serfs, cool. If you like Flying Castles & Snooty Elves, good for you.

Just quit trying to tell me that it's superior to what I like, so I need to abandon what I like.

Go play somewhere else, preferably in your own sandbox, and stop crapping in mine.
 

Jürgen Hubert said:
It's allright to dismiss Eberron as something you wouldn't want to play in. But some seem to dismiss it entirely by saying that it "isn't fantasy", which is not very respectful of those who do play it.
Why? Do you find it offensive to be accused of playing something that isn't fantasy? Don't get me wrong, I agree with your point--I'm just not sure why you care. It's sort of like Eberron being called "corny" in the other thread. People are defending it from being "corny" by calling it "pulp," and those arguments tend to make Eberron sound pretty corny. But why is corny a bad thing? The easiest way to deflate someone's rant about Eberron being corny is to say "yup, it's corny. Sorry, is that a bad thing?" Just as it wouldn't be a strike against Eberron if it weren't fantasy (though I agree with you that it is), it wouldn't be a strike against Eberron if it were corny.
 

What you originally said was that genre classification was responsible for destroying fantasy, but you've failed to tell me why - you've mentioned the finicky nature of fans, the inability of some writers to produce original works, and so on - but all of that has little (if anything) to do with genre classification. You contend that all of the personal failings of fans and writers are a direct result of genre classification, but you keep beating around the bush as to why.
I don't seem to be clear enough. I'll try again:

"It really seems counter-intuitive to say that fantasy cannot be something....it's friggin' FANTASY man, it's all about what cannot be."

That is why putting limits, boundaries, creating categories in fantasy ultimately destroys it. Because when we classify and put boundaries to Fantasy, it ceases to be all that may or may not be.

"What I mean is that classifications of styles within fantasy (...) frame the imagination's of writers [and readers, and publishers, and critics within the genre]. Suddenly, there is a "right way" and a "wrong way" to write and enjoy fantasy. There are some sides to choose from. There are petty debates on what's good and bad fantasy. All that does a disservice to fantasy itself, as a genre, because it frames and impedes imaginations, which is what fantasy is supposed to be all about."

I can't be more plain than this.
 
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jdrakeh said:
[Edit: Sorry, that came out much more grating than I thought it would. It wasn't meant as a personal attack, but as an observation based upon years of very similar claims made by numerous other bitter authors that I've known (which is why I said that I may be in error). Lacking an actual explantion of why, though, I guess I'll never know.]
Well, it felt very aggressive and personal indeed. :\
 

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