[Rant] Fantasy - beyond the "standard" paradigm

[rounser]

You're ignoring the fact that the original poster specifically prefaces the backhanded 'science fictasy' comment with "It doesn't seem like fantasy at all." We could go rounds about what the original poster in the other thread could have said, but I feel it's probably more productive to address what he actually did say

Yeah, we could...but that'd mean I'd have to give up my Half-Troll template.

I Can't Believe It's Not Sci Fi
Warning: May contain traces of industrial magic and robots
Now with 200% more dragon!

Okay, got that out of my system....please continue.

 

[vulcan_idic]

I do indeed wholeheartedly concur.

After reading through this thread, I realized that many people here interpret fantasy rather narrowly - to be specific, to them it's only fantasy if it adhers to a pseudo-medieval paradigm (or possibly to an even more primitive technological level).

To me, that's rather close minded. Why should fantasy be limited to these genres? Why can't we admit that other varieties are fantasy, too?

Take Eberron, for example - it mixes magic and D&D with societies and attitudes resembling Earth after WWI. Minor magic items are manufactured in an almost industrial way, and are relatively easily available for those with gold to spend.

What makes this any less "fantasy" than the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Planescape or all the others? Just because it isn't like the D&D settings you are used to it doesn't mean it isn't fantasy!

And there are other varieties of fantasy, too. There is the World of Darkness and the whole "urban fantasy" genre, where the supernatural and monsters hide within mundane society. There are GURPS Technomancer and Shadowrun, in which magic returns to modern Earth after a prolonged absence. There is Fading Suns, which mixes the supernatural with blasters, energy shields, and starships.

And all of these are fantasy, without resembling the Forgotten Realms. Now, whether you like them is up to you - tastes differ, after all - but that doesn't change the fact that they are all valid examples of the fantasy genre, even though they might be short on knights in plate mail riding forth to slaughter orcs...

 

[jdrakeh]

I guess I have to ask is .. Why? or Who cares?

I have been playing the same Greyhawk setting since 1e, why change?

I don't think he's telling you to change what you play, but merely pointing out that fantasy derived from medieval Europe isn't the sum whole of fantasy as a genre and that, indeed, many other kinds of fantasy exist and are enjoyed on a regular basis by hundreds of thousands of people. To say that the only literature which qualifies as "fantasy" is that which mimics conventions of medieval Europe is incredibly short-sighted (and this is the argument that Jurgen is refuting).

 

[Maggan]

I guess I have to ask is .. Why? or Who cares?

I have been playing the same Greyhawk setting since 1e, why change?

I don't think Jürgen wants anyone to change their preferred style of fantasy. I think he just wants to point out a fairly common misconception about fantasy, namely that only fantasy that hews closely to Tolkien or settings similar to that, is fantasy.

I have seen this idea floated around various message boards forever and ever*. It is often used as a platform to attack or criticise various other fantasy settings and games, eg Eberron ("OMG it has warforged and they are the same as robots so Eberron isn't fantasy because fantasy doesn't have robots") or WFRP ("OMG it has firearms so WFRP isn't fantasy because fantasy doesn't have firearms").

So if anything, Jürgen wants us to see fantasy in a wider perspective. And that's all.

/M

*often along with the notion that Tolkien invented the fantasy genre.

 

[jdrakeh]

*often along with the notion that Tolkien invented the fantasy genre.

Ack! Now that is just plain nuts

 

[shilsen]

Hear hear Jurgen! Well said.

I'm shocked that you agree with Jürgen! And even more shocked that I agree with him too! What could the world be coming to?

 

[Herzog]

In complete agreement with OP

The most irritating deriviate of the 'fantasy=medieval+dragons' notion is the concept launched by those that in believe in this notion of 'fantasy correct'.

This concept attempts to say: you can have medieval clothes and items (historically correct) but you may add things that we could agree upon to be added if we calculate in magic/magical creatures.

It completely bypasses the fact that fantasy can be added to any historical background.
(Note: of course, once this is added to a future background it becomes science fiction. not that science fiction is not fantasy, but it has it's own genre label...)

Of course, once a setting has been agreed upon, you could discuss the 'setting correctness' of certain creatures, classes, clothes, weapons, etc. Although I tend to react less irritable when approached with 'not fitting the setting'.....

Herzog

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I'm shocked that you agree with Jürgen! And even more shocked that I agree with him too! What could the world be coming to?

What, am I that controversial around here?

I mean, I do have a certain reputation over at the SJGForums, but I wasn't aware of anything similar on ENWorld...

 

[Vascant]

So if anything, Jürgen wants us to see fantasy in wa wider perspective. And that's all.

Maybe it is just me but I am not very big into being told what I will think or how I will think about it. I like the way I think but most of all, I like the freedom to think how I wish. He is free to like his fantasy however he desires but the moment he thinks his opinion is better then anyone elses or we all should change ours to match his.. very sadly mistaken. I like the fact I can say this, he and everyone else is free to like whatever fantasy they enjoy.

 

[Eosin the Red]

I think all the things you described are labeled as sub-genres of fantasy. Eberon, to my limited knowledge, isn't fantasy in the stock meaning of the word. It does fall under the general heading of fantasy but fills a much more narrow niche. Ditto for Shadow Run and post-apoc settings or space opera. For some people it is important to avoid calling a F150 truck a "car," though it meets the technical definition, not because "car" is better, but because it is a truck. It has to do with degrees of conciseness - some people are very and some people are not.