[Rant] is D&D going the way of the CCG?

[ichabod]

Re: Arrg!

If someone says, "I don't want to pay $90 for something that contains less original material than what I paid $60 for," then there are people who respond with comments like "Quit whining, suck it up, and shell out."

I don't see that happening. What I see is people (not you, notably) saying "WotC is evil for making me spend $90 for something that contains less original material than I paid $60 for," when they don't have to buy it, even if they want the new material. You don't want to buy it, fine. You don't want to play it, fine. You want to malign WotC for putting out a revision based on consumer complaints, and giving away all of the new information for free, that's another issue.

 

[buzz]

So...

I take it that we're going to have one of these Chicken Little, making-stupid-Microsoft-comparisons threads say, every week between now and July?

 

[Churchill]

Gah!

No one. Anywhere. Is forcing anybody to buy anything. Anything.

Not with Magic. Not with Warhammer. Not with D&D.

You can play any of those games with any of the materials you already have.

Converting from one version to another is a voluntary choice on YOUR part. If you're happy with the game in the iteration you possess the materials for, then play that game.

The complaints against Magic and Warhammer's endless cycle of revision induced obsolecence have more validity (but only some), and that's only because you have to PAY for the revised stuff. With D&D 3.5, you only "HAVE" to pay if you want the actual books NOT the information.

All you need to play the game is the information. You don't need the books, just the information that's in the books.

You can play 3e D&D pretty much for free now. Just visit the SRD. You'll be able to play D&D 3.5 pretty much for free. Just visit the SRD. The only thing "FORCING" you to buy the physical books is YOUR own desire to possess these physical objects.

(End of rant. Let the flaming commence.)

 

[coyote6]

-How would you go about it, in order to tick off the least amount of gamers?

Wait one more year. Stop releasing new products 3+ months before releasing the new revision. Release more information about the magnitude of the revision.

Four years just feels like a better intverval between sizable revisions (and from what I've seen, it does seem fairly sizable) -- it's good enough for presidents and Olympics, right?

I was looking forward to the Fiend Folio & the other upcoming books -- but not any more. Now, I'm wondering whether I should bother, since I don't know how compatible it will be with either Original Flava 3e, or 3e Revised.

The last is probably most important. Yeah, I know WotC will release plenty of info over the next few months -- but it will be in marketing hype dribs and drabs. Screw that noise. Give me facts with which I can decide whether or not I want the book. That could very well assuage my discomfort about the length of time, and would certainly give me the information to judge whether I want to spend money on the FF, gear book, Savage Species, etc.

It's probably largely because I wasn't involved or invested in AD&D 2e, but for some reason the 3.5 Hype seems a bit more annoying. What I find annoying: 2e->3e produced large changes; it was clear that it was, to some extent, a new game. But with 3.0->3.5, it's not at all clear. Yes, they've said it will be compatible -- but how compatible?

One can say that d20 Call of Cthulhu, d20 Star Wars (revised), D&D 3e, and even Mutants & Masterminds are compatible with one another, to a certain extent. But you certainly can't grab a character from one and plunk him down in another without any changes and have it work. And some changes would be rather heavy-duty.

So how compatible will 3.0 be with 3.5? If my group converts its characters to 3.5e, and I want them to face the Lord of the Iron Fortress, how much will I have to change? I Don't Know. And I want to know.

(Judging from the revised pit fiend, the answer is "A Whole Lot")

(Oh, one more idea: release either the revised SRD or an "SRD Addendum" with a summary of the revisions in April or May. Let people see things for themselves sooner.)

 

[Mouseferatu]

Wait one more year. Stop releasing new products 3+ months before releasing the new revision. Release more information about the magnitude of the revision.

No RPG company, not even the Big Pappa Wizard, can financially afford to go three months or more without releasing product for their biggest game. Even if, in the case of WotC, that's only a single hardcover and a few small books, those books are an important part of the schedule.

I was looking forward to the Fiend Folio & the other upcoming books -- but not any more. Now, I'm wondering whether I should bother, since I don't know how compatible it will be with either Original Flava 3e, or 3e Revised.

<snip>

It's probably largely because I wasn't involved or invested in AD&D 2e, but for some reason the 3.5 Hype seems a bit more annoying. What I find annoying: 2e->3e produced large changes; it was clear that it was, to some extent, a new game. But with 3.0->3.5, it's not at all clear. Yes, they've said it will be compatible -- but how compatible?

One can say that d20 Call of Cthulhu, d20 Star Wars (revised), D&D 3e, and even Mutants & Masterminds are compatible with one another, to a certain extent. But you certainly can't grab a character from one and plunk him down in another without any changes and have it work. And some changes would be rather heavy-duty.

So how compatible will 3.0 be with 3.5? If my group converts its characters to 3.5e, and I want them to face the Lord of the Iron Fortress, how much will I have to change? I Don't Know. And I want to know.

The pit fiend is an extreme example. Will you have to make tweaks? Yes. Are they going to be extreme or dramatic? No. One of the things WotC specifically playtested was how well 3.0 critters work under 3.5 rules. And the answer was pretty much "Just fine."

 

[coyote6]

No RPG company, not even the Big Pappa Wizard, can financially afford to go three months or more without releasing product for their biggest game. Even if, in the case of WotC, that's only a single hardcover and a few small books, those books are an important part of the schedule.

True! (though ISTR a gap before 3e came out). But they could release things that weren't as "crunch" heavy as Fiend Folio.

The pit fiend is an extreme example.

It is? I didn't know that. Where did you come by this information?

Will you have to make tweaks? Yes. Are they going to be extreme or dramatic? No. One of the things WotC specifically playtested was how well 3.0 critters work under 3.5 rules. And the answer was pretty much "Just fine."

Again, you seem to have information I don't. Could you share?

How about the reverse? How will 3.5 critters work under 3.0 rules?

 

[faete]

As a note, someone above suggested releasing the Revised SRD when the books go to the printers.

Others have noted that the update will likely hurt the d20 companies who are almost forced to delay some products.

What I would like to see is the releasing of the SRC to the d20 companies when 3.5 hits the printers. It would allow projects to be back up to speed much faster than those additional few months, and be beneficial to the community as a whole.

As for these people releasing the rules early and ruining the effect for everyone else, since Wizard would know who received copies, it should be much easier to track down.

 

[Dark Helmet]

True. I don't want to sound like an ingrate (Sorry, Corinth). It's rare for a company to make the effort and listen to its customers so closely, and I really do appreciate that. It's also really nice of them to provide the bulk of the changes as part of the SRD. I just know I want to buy it, and I don't know if I will be able to buy it right away. I'm also starting to run out of shelf space, and three more books might require me to buy a new bookcase... See! The costs are piling up even more! DARN YOU, WIZARDS!

Of course, you could always sell your 3.0 Edition books on Ebay. Since they won't be printing any more, they're SURE
to become collector's items.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Coyote,

I can't share specific details. I can tell you that I'm involved in several RPG industry groups and lists, and I've been trying to follow what's been said about this sort of thing.

The pit fiend being an "extreme example" is, I'll admit, something I've inferred from what's been said. It's possible I could be wrong, though I don't think so based on what I've heard. I do know it as stated fact by someone at WotC, though, that they did indeed playtest 3.0 critters under 3.5 rules.

 

[Mordane76]

Yes... I'm sure I can get oodles for those soon-to-be out-of-print books of mine.

Although I hadn't thought about it, coyote6 makes a good point. How are the books that are straddling the fence of this revision going to look? Did WotC think far enough ahead to make changes prior to printing them, or are we getting a Fiend Folio and Savage Species, as well as others, which are written from the 3.0 perspective?

I'd also like to see some more straight talk on the revisions as well. I know hype is important (makes people WANT to buy), but those of us already invested in the system might feel a lot more hyped up if we had a better idea of what we're getting. OTOH, we might feel less hyped up if we know what we're getting....

Either way Wizards plays it, they're going to make some people unhappy with their strategy; if they hold their cards close, than those of us with misgivings and concerns will be reluctant to buy, but if they play their cards out in the open, then those with less misgivings might find things they don't like and decide not to buy the book.


On a more happy note... My wife agreed to let me buy! I told her, "Look woman! I'm gonna buy these books in the summer, and there is nothing your estrogen can do to stop me!"

She said, "Okay."

I looked disarmed, sat there stunned... thought about arguing about her not disagreeing with me... decided to check for alien mind-altering devices... then just let it go and was happy with my victory, until I find out what it will cost me...