D&D 4E Rant on the 4E "Presentation"

[BadMojo]

--The 8 classes to be in the game

We have information on the 8 classes that will be in the first PHB? I totally missed that!

 

[Raven Crowking]

It kills me that we are bending over backwards to give out as much information as we feel is in the best interest of keeping people engaged and excited 8 months before the launch when we are still playtestsing and we get crapped on for doing what we do.

I'm sorry that it kills you.

Obviously, some people feel differently about how much information is in their best interests. I have been re-reading my issues of Dragon leading up to the 3.0 launch, and I am surprised by how much information there is in that source. Specific game mechanics. Specific answers to specific concerns. I understand that you want to keep people excited, but it is my experience that gamers are detail-oriented -- they are engaged by specifics, and dismiss generalities.

Your experience may be different, but your post suggests that it is not.

I think it is important to remember that a lot of folks love this game, and expressing legitimate concerns isn't crapping on you. Becoming frustrated when those legitimate concerns are not answered isn't crapping on you. IMHO, of course. There are a lot of big changes in this edition, and the more you change, the more folks are going to want to know that those changes are justified. That's human nature, AFAICT.

I am sure that most people believe that there are limits to what you can say, and that those limits come from "on high". There is an equal concern, of course, that some design goals might come from "on high" as well, and that is where the "faceless corporation" comments rear their ugly head.

I think that it is also important to remember that this industry, like all other industries, is customer-driven. WotC is "bending over backwards" to attempt to "engage and excite" its customer base prior to launching 4e. I call this publicity, advertising, and hype. If WotC gets "crapped on" for what it's providing in this department, that indicates to me that there is a problem with your promotion campaign. If your promotion campaign isn't working, changing it is more likely to solve the problem than is complaining that people aren't buying into it.

The fact that you are still playtesting so much that you cannot provide requested details, when all three books are slated for a June release, is also a cause for legitimate concern. IMHO, at least.

Worse, there are development articles that make some doubt whether or not this game is being designed for them. Mr. Mearls, for example, when talking about encounter design, seems to imaginine that 3.5 is suitable only for the use of single monsters in encounters. This flies in the face of the experience of many DMs and players, and is bound to make some concerned about how this new game will function, if our understandings of the old game is so divergent. I have the same problem with Mr. Wyatt's suggestion that adding per-encounter abilities will end the 9-9:15 adventuring day problem.

When they arise, these concerns ought to be addressed. Perhaps this was easier in the days when 3.0 was coming out, because letters to Dragon could be vetted and answered on the basis of available information. Keeping up with all of these concerns across various messageboards is a full-time job....possibly for several people.

Still, a consolidated location, open to the public without subscription, to answer these concerns would not go amiss. I mention "open to the public without subscription" because, frankly, I strongly dislike the ToS on Gleemax. Surely the lawyer(s) who wrote the OGL could write a better agreement that both protects WotC and doesn't force posters to give WotC rights to their work in perpetuity.

There is also an attitude in some comments that makes it seem as though WotC isn't listening to its customer base. Mr. Noonan's "cloudwatching" remarks are a case in point. To some people, myself included, it read as "We don't care whether you like it or not, this is what's going to happen." The obvious response to that is, "If you don't care whether I like it or not, why would I buy it?"

In short, there are many people who view certain recent developments (from ending the print magazines to perceived aspects the new edition, or even the advent of a new edition itself) as potentially good for WotC but bad for gamers (or the game) as a whole. Those folks have a legitimate reason to want to make thier voices heard, if for no other reason than that people buy products because they feel they can use them. Few people, if any, will buy a product just because doing so is good for the company who makes it.

None of this has anything to do with you as a person. None of this has anything to do with any WotC employee or designer as a person. I'm sure even the biggest naysayers would enjoy inviting you for an evening of gaming and drinks.

But 4e is a product, that WotC is trying to sell us on. I doubt very much that there is a gamer alive who doesn't hope every new product is a "must have" that transforms their gaming experience to the better. This is an audience that wants to be sold. Telling you that we are not yet sold is a service, allowing WotC to adjust its strategy, and it is a service that some of us are bending over backwards to provide.

Cheers!

RC

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Never in my years working in marketing have I seen a company be this interactive and responsive to a community and we still get blamed for being "corporate" and "faceless".

I agree. The presence of you and other WotC employees on these boards in addition to your own is refreshing. Thanks.

I bet if we gave these same people a one hundred dollar bill they would complain because it wasn't two. :\

Try me, please.

 

[Vigilance]

Obviously, some people feel differently about how much information is in their best interests. I have been re-reading my issues of Dragon leading up to the 3.0 launch, and I am surprised by how much information there is in that source. Specific game mechanics. Specific answers to specific concerns. I understand that you want to keep people excited, but it is my experience that gamers are detail-oriented -- they are engaged by specifics, and dismiss generalities.

Except that the OP watched part of the original presentation (not even all of it), that was put out months ago, and then came to complain that there wasn't enough information.

We've gotten a lot more information since then.

Obviously not enough to please some people, but there has been plenty of specifics, especially now that we have a complete monster statblock.

There has also been specific mechancis discussed.

Again, some people, quite obviously, won't be satisfied by anything other than full disclosure, which will have to wait for the books.

It also seems that some people are just looking for something to complain about.

I am sure that most people believe that there are limits to what you can say, and that those limits come from "on high". There is an equal concern, of course, that some design goals might come from "on high" as well, and that is where the "faceless corporation" comments rear their ugly head.

Dude, what?

Sure, there's limits to what the designers can say.

And yeah, those limits probably come from the top.

But then you go off on this whole "faceless corporation" thing.

I'd be willing to bet the people who set those limits are some of the very people posting on these blogs.

This game is 8 months away.

They can't tell us everything yet.

I'd be willing to bet that the "faceless corporation" making that call are probably guys like Scott.

Sharing a lot doesn't equal sharing everything. Not sharing everything doesn't immediately turn you into a Morley-smoking Cancer Man having a late-night meeting with Deep Throat and a bunch of other "faceless corporates" in the parking garage of the Watergate Hotel.

I think that it is also important to remember that this industry, like all other industries, is customer-driven. WotC is "bending over backwards" to attempt to "engage and excite" its customer base prior to launching 4e. I call this publicity, advertising, and hype. If WotC gets "crapped on" for what it's providing in this department, that indicates to me that there is a problem with your promotion campaign. If your promotion campaign isn't working, changing it is more likely to solve the problem than is complaining that people aren't buying into it.

It's also important to remember that some people won't be pleased no matter how good their service is.

It's almost important to remember that those who complain the loudest are rarely in the majority.

The fact that you are still playtesting so much that you cannot provide requested details, when all three books are slated for a June release, is also a cause for legitimate concern. IMHO, at least.

Not really. This is crunch time. They just changed course and decided to ship all the books at once, rather than staggering them over a 3 month span.

You think that might have put a little unexpected time pressure on folks?

And of course, they did this because of retailer and player feedback.

In other words, a major change of course because we asked for it.

Worse, there are development articles that make some doubt whether or not this game is being designed for them.

You mean, not everyone likes everything they're hearing about the game?

Whoa. That's heavy. I feel like I'm being fired.

Mr. Mearls, for example, when talking about encounter design, seems to imaginine that 3.5 is suitable only for the use of single monsters in encounters. This flies in the face of the experience of many DMs and players, and is bound to make some concerned about how this new game will function, if our understandings of the old game is so divergent. I have the same problem with Mr. Wyatt's suggestion that adding per-encounter abilities will end the 9-9:15 adventuring day problem.

And plenty of other people have reported that they have seen both of these problems, to various degrees.

In other words, just because you personally haven't had any of these problems, that doesn't mean other people haven't.

Your experiences are your experiences.

When they arise, these concerns ought to be addressed. Perhaps this was easier in the days when 3.0 was coming out, because letters to Dragon could be vetted and answered on the basis of available information. Keeping up with all of these concerns across various messageboards is a full-time job....possibly for several people.

Wait, you mean Wizards should answer every concern posted by everyone, on every message board?

There is also an attitude in some comments that makes it seem as though WotC isn't listening to its customer base. Mr. Noonan's "cloudwatching" remarks are a case in point. To some people, myself included, it read as "We don't care whether you like it or not, this is what's going to happen." The obvious response to that is, "If you don't care whether I like it or not, why would I buy it?"

It seems to me that Wizards has been pretty responsive. Sometimes about little things, but other times about really enormous ones.

Again, shipping all the books in one month leaps to mind.

In short, there are many people who view certain recent developments (from ending the print magazines to perceived aspects the new edition, or even the advent of a new edition itself) as potentially good for WotC but bad for gamers (or the game) as a whole. Those folks have a legitimate reason to want to make thier voices heard, if for no other reason than that people buy products because they feel they can use them. Few people, if any, will buy a product just because doing so is good for the company who makes it.

Ah, and here you completely go off the rails.

Yes, "many people" will never ever forgive Wizards to doing something differently with the magazines they own, that they felt was in THEIR best interests.

Yes, "many people" will never, ever forgive Wizards for daring to make a new edition of the game without consulting them personally.

"Many people" make outrageous demands on others that should have no expectation of being met.

If I own a car, and I decide to sell it, you have no right to complain to me, because its MY car. Even if you chipped in for gas every week.

Wizards doesn't expect us to buy 4e just because it's "good for them".

They have a product they're offering, they think we'll like it, they're offering to sell it to us.

That's it.

This anti-corporate vibe you give off is really weird to me.

They're making something new. They hope we'll like it. That is all.

Clearly some folks don't, and that's cool.

But that doesn't mean they're a devious, faceless corporation attempting to pawn something worthless off on you using nothing but vague generalities either.

Not pleasing everyone does not equal being incompetent.

Not giving out enough information RIGHT NOW to answer every question, on every message board, in real time doesn't mean they're holding back.

 

[med stud]

I was about to answer but Vigilance said what I was about to say. Good post, Vigilance!

 

[allenw]

I bet if we gave these same people a one hundred dollar bill they would complain because it wasn't two. :\

Personally, if someone gave me a two-hundred dollar bill I'd be inclined to complain.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

It kills me that we are bending over backwards to give out as much information as we feel is in the best interest of keeping people engaged and excited 8 months before the launch when we are still playtestsing and we get crapped on for doing what we do.

Never in my years working in marketing have I seen a company be this interactive and responsive to a community and we still get blamed for being "corporate" and "faceless". I bet if we gave these same people a one hundred dollar bill they would complain because it wasn't two. :\

What kills me is that you seem to be paying way too much attention to those doing the crapping. Why not give some indication that those of us who are optimistic and positive (for the most part) about the impending new edition are being heard as well? I'd try to post a list of thoughtful questions and desires for the new edition if I thought you'd read it.

 

[Piratecat]

Gang, just a reminder -- please keep treating people with respect, even when you don't agree with them. There are some good discussions going on in this thread, and I'd hate to see them drowned out by folks who forget that WotC employees and fans shouldn't all be lumped into generic groups.

Thanks.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

What kills me is that you seem to be paying way too much attention to those doing the crapping. Why not give some indication that those of us who are optimistic and positive (for the most part) about the impending new edition are being heard as well? I'd try to post a list of thoughtful questions and desires for the new edition if I thought you'd read it.

You are totally right. I have this near sick compulsion to feed the trolls. I need to feed the happy elves intstead.

Thanks

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Gang, just a reminder -- please keep treating people with respect, even when you don't agree with them. There are some good discussions going on in this thread, and I'd hate to see them drowned out by folks who forget that WotC employees and fans shouldn't all be lumped into generic groups.

Thanks.

I don't know if my post was part of the problem, but it wasn't intended as anything but an indication that there are plenty of us out here who aren't crapping on WotC and the way they're handling the 4e lead-up. It just would be nice to see more of what we post be acknowledged or commented upon by the designers, rather than the focus being on the negative. Just to be clear, I'm starting from the position that I want to like 4e, and the times I've posted about it, I've tried to be constructive and enthusiastic. It'd be cool to know that WotC knows guys like me are out here.