D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

"Rare in practice" doesn't square with "the most popular RPG", unless you assert that the majority of 5e games are only using a subset of the systems with a clearly defined creative agenda. Which is not my experience.
Rare in practice are reffering to tables that is strongly playing with hybrid agendas. As I mentioned in my follow up post to the one you replied to the creative agenda classification is for what is going on in the player's mind during actual play. It is not a classification scheme for systems. The forge thesis was that it would be possible to make games specifically supporting a single creative agenda. 5ed doesn't pretend to be such a game - rather the opposite.
 

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It's not complicated.

Only WotC can make real D&D. And they did so, putting out 4e.

Some people tried it and said "This does feel like D&D to me." That's their perception. What else could it be?

Hence, the accuracy of my comment above.
As it turns out, many things can be both accurate and irrelevant to the task at hand.
 

I wouldn't phrase it that way. A story is the result of what happens, but only in some cases is the point of play trying to make that result interesting or more "literary".

Like, if I livestreamed myself for the next 6 hours, you could tell a story about what I did, but what I am doing is not any attempt to tell a story. (Assuming I don't change my behavior because I know I'm being recorded.)
I'm pretty sure even if you livestreamed yourself doing absolutely nothing for six hours, someone, somewhere, would consider that a story.

But you're not livestreaming yourself doing nothing. You're gathered with a group of other people, playing fictional characters in a fictional world (or the real world with fictional elements). You are describing your characters actions and interactions. By default, this is a story that is being told. No, you're not likely thinking about your character's narrative arc or looking for a deeper meaning in the plot, but you don't need that for it to be a story.
 

Well, as I've argued previously in various other threads, I don't divide things in this way. I don't claim my game-(design-)purposes are exhaustive either. There might be other paths I've failed to consider. But these ones are how I see it:

  • Score & Achievement: What maps closest to "gamism". There is some kind of metric which measures success, whether "you must reach this height" or "you must finish this quickly" or otherwise, and clear results or events which you can wear like a badge of honor if you reach them (e.g. "I beat the Tomb of Annihilation" or "my group defeated a Tarrasque").
  • Groundedness & Simulaiton: What maps closest to what I call "hard" "simulationism", that is, simulation in the "rules-as-physics" direction. There is an establishment of ground rules and understandable, cognizable world which does not change unless for established reasons, and play is driven primarily by posing situations or events and then responding to them through creative application of abilities and tools (e.g. materials, gear, allies, etc.)
  • Concept & Emulation: This is the "other" kind of "simulationism", which never sat right with me as being lumped with the above. Here, instead of setting a ground floor, this establishes genre conventions which will be upheld (or possibly critiqued), in order to explore an idea, a concept, a social construction, etc., so that play can proceed by bringing to life a particular group or class of stories.
  • Values & Issues: What maps closest to "narrativism". Players and GMs alike define what things matter to them, what drives their character(/the world's inhabitants, for the GM), what pushes things toward uncertain moments, and then play occurs by asking, and finding out, why and how those uncertain moments resolve, and in doing so, what subsequent uncertain moments result, generally with the idea that both characters and world will be changed by this process of resolution.

No two of these game-(design-)purposes is incompatible with any other in the abstract. All of them can prioritize "realism" or "verisimilitude". Though G&S is obviously the most interested in that goal, it is neither exclusive to it, nor always the most important thing for it. Even G&S makes concessions to the inherently abstract nature of gaming, and may, under circumstances narrower than the others, even make sacrifices of "realism" in the name of making something feel more grounded/natural/etc. despite actually being less.

V&I is the newest kid on the block, though its roots trace back to pretty early on in TTRPGing--it just only got attention and intentional development in the past like 20 years. S&A is unequivocally the oldest (having evolved out of wargaming), but G&S came right on its heels and has been frequently in tension with S&A ever since (and, ironically, both often lay claim to the mantle of "realism"--but they mean different things by "realism", one of the reasons I strongly dislike that term.) C&E is, in my experience, unfairly treated like a mere subset of G&S, when in fact the two are usually quite different in both goals and execution, only being similar at a very high degree of abstraction--at which point most of these game-(design-)purposes are fundamentally similar.
When you first posted that I made a copy to reflect on. You provide worthwhile lenses even if still don't quite agree!
 

The creative agendas are describing state of mind of the participants of the activity. The forge idea was that a game would be better if it was specialized toward one of these. The entire background for "better" was the observation that games generally wasn't specialized.

Making a game with a hodge podge of mechanics anyone can find some fun with wathever they want to do if they just put in the effort is quite straight forward. Creating a game that tells clearly who it is for and how it should be played, that effortlessly gives a consistent outstanding experience when this is followed is another matter entirely.
Granted that according to GNS not all games have to have one creative agenda. But the 25 years since have not shown the insights to be true...the popular GM books do not start off with a description of these agendas, the popular games are not designed with them in mind, people generally don't sit down, give these techniques a try, and say "wow, this is way better". So I regard the prescriptive element of GNS to be falsified, at least for most players and most games.

There is a possible argument that you have to be a real expert to execute these techniques properly, or that not enough people have really tried them. The first I'll reject out of hand, the second, I think may have been true in 2005 but not in 2025.

A more defensible thesis is that, to the extent that the GNS categories exist, most people like mixing them and find it results in better games.
 

It accomplishes the goal of "nothing happens" being a logical outcome in some circumstances, and wanting said logical outcome to be possible in play.. Since that goal isn't important to you personally, it seems irrelevant.
Why do you have "nothing happens" there as an option in the first place?

Thinking back to the last few sessions I played in, I can't think of a single place where "nothing happens" was more logical than "something happens."
 

No, then that would be crappy DMing, as we’ve all said. Once you establish something as true in the fiction, you’re supposed to build off that, not contradict it.
Good to hear this.

My question then becomes, what can the character do in the fiction to get things to the point where if he fails on his attempted task, all that happens is that he fails and nothing else.

Because if I'm playing that thief in character as someone who a) knows what he's doing and b) doesn't want to get caught, that no-risk state is exactly the condition I'm aspiring to achieve through all my pre-scouting and casing of the place. There's still no guarantee I'll be able to pick the lock - I won't know if I can until I actually try it - but if I fail I can bail with the least-possible risk of complication, and try a different approach.
 



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