D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

It's almost never two party members falling, it's one party member climbing to the top and dropping a rope or if they have a climber's kit putting pitons and attachment points for the others. As far as multiple people falling? I had that happen in a session I played recently. The only reason they didn't fall further was that we had taken the precaution of tying off to each other and my barbarian making a strength check to not fall with them. We also made notes to buy a climbing kit or two when we get back to town.
I can see the pitons and climber's kit and someone didn't secure one of them tight enough and one dude drops as the loose piton/s reveal themselves, while a second makes a STR check to alleviate the pressure on the remaining pitons. That is cinematic.
I envision the first guy could suffer a menu of complications.

I think that's a big part of what makes D&D popular, that we have significant leeway on how we run our games.
I agree with this.
 

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Come on! The Tank, Healer, Damage dealer trio was effectively codified into D&D from the first publication.

Not exactly. At least, not within one combat.

Combat before 4e was a very fast thing. 3e had its infamous rocket tag, but even 2e and 1e had fragile characters and big, swingy effects (often spells) that could make or break a fight in a single round. And healing happened between fights, not during them. There wouldn't be a kind of ebb and flow to a fight - it's over ASAP.

Early design even encouraged this through treasure-as-XP. Fights were only risk, no reward.

We see in 5e a move back toward faster combats (though not nearly as binary as 3e and before could be, which is overall probably a good thing).

Because combat is only one part of the game. And it can be a relatively small part if the focus was on, say, dungeon exploration, or storytelling.

Like a lot of 4e's more controversial decisions, moving to a role-focused class design meant moving something that could be true for some subset of players and making it a major concern for every player.

D&D has often struggled with this tension of defining what its goals of play are. Tell a story? Raid a dungeon? Fight some monsters? Different tables had different weights, and they could all be playing the same game (and, of course, complaining about different elements of it).

If the main goal of play isn't "fight some monsters," (and it wasn't, for thousands of players) then combat roles are not a useful addition, because combat is not really supposed to be a focus in those games.

The AEDU power structure also is an iteration of this same design choice of emphasizing combat.

For some tables, fighting some monsters IS the goal of play, and those tables were probably very happy with roles and consistent power structures. Issue being that even if the largest percentage of players have a goal of fighting some monsters (say, 40%), you might still have a huge number players whose goal is NOT that, and who will chafe at design decisions that emphasize that.

One of the things that 4e's bold choices highlighted was that the diversity of people with a vested interested in "playing D&D" is so large that it can be very difficult to build this particular game in a very focused way, because your focus is inevitably going to exclude big swaths of the player base.

Edit: might be worth pointing out that 5e's perspective on roles is much more resilient to different play styles. The roles are definitely there and different classes are better at different things, but it's not like you can't build a damage-focused Fighter or a healing Warlock or whatever. The roles aren't definitive, they're implied and suggested. I'm sure for the more combat-focused groups out there, this is a worse choice, but it's probably a better choice for D&D, since D&D needs to serve many masters.
 
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Indeed, but they'd ideally emerge in a much more detailed fashion than just the results of one roll, in - I would hope - a one-thing-leads-to-the-next manner that makes sense to all involved.

In actual play, this means that while some might want to resolve that wooing and info-obtaining sequence in one roll, I'd take a lot longer with it - maybe not a whole session, but however long it took to resolve it in some detail and with some roleplay involved.
In a PbtA game, there may only be one roll, but it would be preceded by roleplaying. Which I think it somewhat more important.
 



Just as obviously there are stakes to breaking into a house that were not explained in detail but "stakes" do not matter to me. I don't think in terms of "stakes" so I do not care. Please stop telling me I'm doing it wrong if I do not share your approach to gaming. If there is impending danger and risk I will decide what the players know based on what I think the characters would know.

Im not telling you you're doing it wrong, I'm saying that every game I'm personally aware of which bakes fail-forward into its design and advice (most recently Daggerheart) tells you to be open and clear of the stakes of a roll. To incorporate it into D20 systems (see: Errant), you need to be similarly open for it to work. 4e's Skill Challenges were another way to bake fail-forward, open stakes play into a core D&D skill system by iterating conflicts.

I would encourage you to either a) stick to your guns and say "its not for me" and stop commenting or b) engage with the concept on its own terms instead of poking endless holes of no-true-fail-forwardman.
 

I can see how people who'd never seen it otherwise would not expect or, really, even understand the idea of quasi-objective DCs.

I mean a) you're encouraged to figure out ways to get Advantage bestowed by the GM on stuff, b) the DCs in pretty much every published adventure bear no relationship to the iterate-by-5s stuff in the DMG, and c) almost no DMs are open about the DCs of things.

How would a player have any idea what they're rolling against is objective?
 

I mean a) you're encouraged to figure out ways to get Advantage bestowed by the GM on stuff, b) the DCs in pretty much every published adventure bear no relationship to the iterate-by-5s stuff in the DMG, and c) almost no DMs are open about the DCs of things.

How would a player have any idea what they're rolling against is objective?

They've seen it in other games (including some prior versions of D&D) and just took it as a given? Its not like people don't carry over expectations from other game systems all the time (sometimes to their regret).
 

They've seen it in other games (including some prior versions of D&D) and just took it as a given? Its not like people don't carry over expectations from other game systems all the time (sometimes to their regret).

I kinda misunderstood your previous post - I was agreeing with the idea that players not expecting / knowing of objective DCs for a hard skill system isn’t that inconceivable.
 


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