D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[AlViking]

Huh? Competence is all about what a person says and does.

You seem to think that an amateur burglar is just as likely to blunder into a situation unprepared and unawares as a competent one. I don't agree.

You stated that "competent people make their own luck". Competent people are better at the tasks they are performing, which is true. Competence has nothing to do with "luck" or events not caused by whether or not they are successful at what they are attempting to do.

 

[AlViking]

In the same way that critical discussion of Hamlet often begins with a consideration of Shakespeare's text, so my critical discussion of surprise rules in D&D begins with a consideration of one of the pre-eminent D&D texts.

I didn't know that discussion of rules and texts is now considered a fallacious appeal to authority!

D&D is many things but Gygax was not Shakespeare.

 

[pemerton]

If the dice come up "encounter" then there's an encounter; the party's stealth then has a lot to say about the course that encounter takes and-or whether it is completely bypassed.

DM: <on rolling a random encounter> "On your quiet way through the forest you notice a Dire Wolf not far ahead, on a low ridge. It clearly hasn't noticed you yet."
Player(s): "We back off a bit then sneak around it on the downwind side."

Quantum ridge! Quantum wind! (On top of the regularly-scheduled quantum wolf.)

@Maxperson, @AlViking: notice how the ridge is introduced here by the GM as part of narrating the encounter. The ridge was not noted on the map. The players weren't told about the ridge prior to the roll of the wandering monster dice, so as to have the option of trying to go around it or stay in cover from it.

 

[bloodtide]

Quantum ridge! Quantum wind! (On top of the regularly-scheduled quantum wolf.)

 

[pemerton]

Then why does one lose hit points through discrete effects? And why do those effects cause differing amounts of damage/hit point loss, much of which is distinguished from each other via types of damage?

Are we still simulating nothing

What are you simulating? Nothing that I can see.

I mean, if people were made of bricks, and each hp was a brick, and you were gradually knocking out the bricks, then I could see it. But otherwise, as I said, it's just an intricate countdown clock.

I mean, my Fighter takes 5 hp of fire damage from a Burning Hands spelll, being reduced from 20 hp to 15 hp. Then I use Second Wind and I'm back up to 20 hp. What happened? What did the hp loss simulate? And suppose that, instead of getting to use Second Wind the GM has another monster that acts before me, and it hits my fighter for 16 hp of damage. And so my fighter is at 0 hp and making death saves. What did the 5 hp loss from the spell simulate then? The same thing?

Why can it both contribute to my death, yet be healed by my resolve and grit (either Second Wind, or Hit Dice expenditure, or a good rest)?

To be clear, I'm not covering any new ground here. The non-simulationist character of hit points has been known since about 1975.

 

[pemerton]

5e surprise is determined purely fictionally???

Is it? So when you roll to see if the PCs are surprised by a gelatinous cube, you first work out where the treasure floating in the middle of the cube is relative to the PCs, so as to work out the effect that has on the chance of surprise?

 

[FrogReaver]

What are you simulating? Nothing that I can see.

I mean, if people were made of bricks, and each hp was a brick, and you were gradually knocking out the bricks, then I could see it. But otherwise, as I said, it's just an intricate countdown clock.

Assuming it is just an ‘intricate countdown clock’, does being that preclude it from simulating something?

 

[FrogReaver]

Is it? So when you roll to see if the PCs are surprised by a gelatinous cube, you first work out where the treasure floating in the middle of the cube is relative to the PCs, so as to work out the effect that has on the chance of surprise?

Ummm. You don’t roll to determine surprise in 5e at all. Like I’m not going to make fun of you for not knowing this. Some earlier versions of d&d had the surprise roll from my understanding.

 

[Maxperson]

Quantum ridge! Quantum wind! (On top of the regularly-scheduled quantum wolf.)

@Maxperson, @AlViking: notice how the ridge is introduced here by the GM as part of narrating the encounter. The ridge was not noted on the map. The players weren't told about the ridge prior to the roll of the wandering monster dice, so as to have the option of trying to go around it or stay in cover from it.

The DM narrated the rough and rocky terrain, which obviously includes ridges. If the players wanted to stay away from ridges, it would be difficult, but they might be able to do so. They should have told the DM that.

The ridge wasn't retroactively added. It already existed in the area and was just noted by the DM during the encounter.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But a burglary check clearly does involve other people - all the people who are in, or might be in, the place being burgled.

As I posted upthread, if your RPG system can't distinguish between a skilled burglar and a skilled locksmith, that's a limitation of your system. But it doesn't generalise to all RPGing.

I didn't realize I was making a burglary check. Who's moving the goalposts now?